rdale
EF5
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning... What "amends" does Tony need to make with the fire chief? How is the chasing community as a whole impacted by this event?
Oklahoma Fire Chief Incident from May 16
- Thread starter Tony Laubach
- Start date
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning... What "amends" does Tony need to make with the fire chief? How is the chasing community as a whole impacted by this event?
Joey Ketcham
EF4
Agreed. The only thing that needs to happen is that the fire chief resigns from his position due to his inability to control his temper. Tony did nothing wrong, so the fire chief's action has absolutely no impact on the chasing community. So not sure what amends needs to be made that Greg Flint speaks of or this impact he speaks of.
Dan Robinson
EF5
My first snap reaction was that we'd have more trouble from the small town fire/EMS element as they "dig in" in defiance. But now, I have to wonder, if word of this makes the rounds in the fire/EMS community that the awareness of chasers running video cameras might make a similarly-tempered individual think twice before acting out like this.
Warren Faidley
Supporter
Events involving chasers are lost in the news cycle now days. What became of the tragic deaths this year? Nothing. No new laws were passed and I have not heard of anyone being harassed by LEO in the area. People continued to run stop signs and crash.
We have reached the point where human realities of death, injury, stupidity, fakery, hostility, etc., are now an accepted part of chasing. The public rarely takes notices. We discuss events here, but they are otherwise lost in space. I would assume all pursuits have gone through this type of evolution, from mountain climbing to base jumping. Six people have died so far this year trying to climb Everest. A number like that used to be news worthy -- but not anymore.
We have reached the point where human realities of death, injury, stupidity, fakery, hostility, etc., are now an accepted part of chasing. The public rarely takes notices. We discuss events here, but they are otherwise lost in space. I would assume all pursuits have gone through this type of evolution, from mountain climbing to base jumping. Six people have died so far this year trying to climb Everest. A number like that used to be news worthy -- but not anymore.
S Kalka
EF0
I doubt that it will make any difference at all. In their opinion they are not doing anything wrong. First, I have been a member of a volunteer department for over 27 years, so I can take an educated guess about their intentions. In my dept. it's usually the newer guys that do the weather spotting, and all they know is what they could pick up at a NWS class, so they probably were a little excited. I don't know about OK, but in IL we can only block traffic for fire operations or to protect firefighter/victim at an accident scene. But since emergency vehicle operation is not a "bread and butter" topic for their limited training time (I can only remember about 2 hours in 27 years), they probably didn't know any better. Bottom line is that I would have done what Tony did, but I also would have expected the kid in the brush truck to do what he did. Also, much has been made of the fire chief using his personal vehicle. This is very common. It makes no sense for a 'command officer' to drive to the firehouse to get a marked vehicle and return to the scene if the scene is closer to whatever location he is responding from. As far as the actions of the chief, I'm sure he heard on his radio that "some crazy chaser almost hit my truck." I can understand him being pissed off, but that doesn't excuse him acting like an asshat and beating on Tonys car hood. The chief, in my opinion, was the only one that was out of line, but no video will convince any of the locals of that. Video is only going to make a difference if there is an accident, and only to the insurance company lawyers. Remember, these are the guys that get out of bed at 3 AM to put out the neighbors house fire, or helped grandma when she had a heart attack, and for no pay. If you think an out of state chasers words or even video will change their minds, you're wrong.
Greg Flint
EF1
I thought I was clear Rdale/Joey, but something must have been lost in translation. In my originsl post, If I substituted "other chasers need to make amends" instead of "chasers need to make amends" would that help you understand what I'm talking about?
I never said Tony needs to make amends. Read my post again, I never said that because that's not how I feel.
I thought My post was pretty clear, but if you single out one sentence, you will surely lose context likely based on your own biases, but because I aim to please I'll attempt to clarify For anyone who may have misinterpreted what I wrote:
I'm not singling out Tony, infact I was attempting to do just the opposite, and state countless other idiot chasers/stories caused the OKC fire chief's anger and frustration (along with personal issues he obviously has). Yes that's wrong. If you or anyone want him to resign, HA!! Guess what!?? There are half a dozen more with his same views/actions ready to take his place and you know it. Maybe this aggression is caused for lots of reasons, but maybe one or two of those reasons Is because there are a coupe of people out there who have soured the taste towards this community as a whole. Doesn't make his aggression any more or less fucked up or misguided, but That's everyone who chases problem now whether u want to admit it or not.
Tony did the right thing (and unfairly got a lot of flack for it). Problem is the OK chief (and prob many other EM personel) don't see it that way. Tony backed up his actions with proof via video/image, but cats already out of the bag from Too many fucking idiots, driving around like maniacs chasing that are the bad apples spoiling it for the whole bunch. I never said Tony was a bad apple or needs to make amends for anything and I hope that's clear to you now
I never said Tony needs to make amends. Read my post again, I never said that because that's not how I feel.
I thought My post was pretty clear, but if you single out one sentence, you will surely lose context likely based on your own biases, but because I aim to please I'll attempt to clarify For anyone who may have misinterpreted what I wrote:
I'm not singling out Tony, infact I was attempting to do just the opposite, and state countless other idiot chasers/stories caused the OKC fire chief's anger and frustration (along with personal issues he obviously has). Yes that's wrong. If you or anyone want him to resign, HA!! Guess what!?? There are half a dozen more with his same views/actions ready to take his place and you know it. Maybe this aggression is caused for lots of reasons, but maybe one or two of those reasons Is because there are a coupe of people out there who have soured the taste towards this community as a whole. Doesn't make his aggression any more or less fucked up or misguided, but That's everyone who chases problem now whether u want to admit it or not.
Tony did the right thing (and unfairly got a lot of flack for it). Problem is the OK chief (and prob many other EM personel) don't see it that way. Tony backed up his actions with proof via video/image, but cats already out of the bag from Too many fucking idiots, driving around like maniacs chasing that are the bad apples spoiling it for the whole bunch. I never said Tony was a bad apple or needs to make amends for anything and I hope that's clear to you now
[QUOTE="Also, much has been made of the fire chief using his personal vehicle. This is very common. It makes no sense for a 'command officer' to drive to the firehouse to get a marked vehicle and return to the scene if the scene is closer to whatever location he is responding from. [/QUOTE]
Well ... I can only reply based on my training in my state, but, in PA, they can indeed use their POV, but, without the proper lights (and audible signals to be used while responding if outfitted with flashing red lights), they are not emergency vehicles and are not to be used to block traffic, break traffic laws, etc. Responders can also equip vehicles with flashing blue lights but no siren (with authorization and blue is the only color to be used in that case), but, those are only "courtesy" lights, so, they are also not supposed to be used to block traffic, break traffic laws, etc.
If this incident happened in PA (and states with similar laws), I think much would be made about it (if the word got out), it is unlikely that it would be swept under the rug. In PA, the chief would have been dead wrong for 1) Blocking the road with an non-emergency vehicle 2) Committing assault ... and could be prosecuted . And, nowadays, the chances of something like this going public are pretty high. I would guess there are some different laws in OK, but, assuming they are similar, the guy was dead wrong.
Well ... I can only reply based on my training in my state, but, in PA, they can indeed use their POV, but, without the proper lights (and audible signals to be used while responding if outfitted with flashing red lights), they are not emergency vehicles and are not to be used to block traffic, break traffic laws, etc. Responders can also equip vehicles with flashing blue lights but no siren (with authorization and blue is the only color to be used in that case), but, those are only "courtesy" lights, so, they are also not supposed to be used to block traffic, break traffic laws, etc.
If this incident happened in PA (and states with similar laws), I think much would be made about it (if the word got out), it is unlikely that it would be swept under the rug. In PA, the chief would have been dead wrong for 1) Blocking the road with an non-emergency vehicle 2) Committing assault ... and could be prosecuted . And, nowadays, the chances of something like this going public are pretty high. I would guess there are some different laws in OK, but, assuming they are similar, the guy was dead wrong.
rdale
EF5
No
You said chasers need to "continue the much needed dialogue to address this very incident" which seems to refer to Tony's incident. Chasers and non-chasers outside of this thread probably have zero clue this happened. Suggesting that we sit down with our local fire chief to "make amends" still doesn't translate for me.Chris Sokol
EF5
Having been a firefighter for 25 years both in Oklahoma and in other states, I can say this with zero doubt...if I had been operating the fire vehicle in question and swerved like that, and struck another vehicle in the process, I would have been found to be 100% responsible for causing the accident and held both liable and accountable. No excuse for behavior like that...zero. And as for the "professionalism" of the fire chief.....
Greg Flint
EF1
I disagree. While its not front page news in the Wall Street Journal or NY Times, the encounter happened in a small town of 256 people (county 22k). I'm sure EM & families/friends at the very least are aware of the situation in a town that small. Word spreads, especially negative words towards a group of people to be criticized in media as of late (traffic problems, accidents resulting in death to name a few). The encounter and subsequent defense by Tony (and rightfully so) caused the chief's wife to ring up Tony's employer, so the story has reached a far wider audience than zero.
rdale
EF5
Of course people in that town know - what I'm arguing against is the claim that chasers as a whole need to sit down with EMs as a whole and discuss the problem. There is no widespread problem, there are pockets. There is no widespread chaser-running-stopsigns issue, but there are pockets.
justinmacauley
EF0
Thanks , I will read it.
Hey, Tony, it's been awhile since we've had posts on this thread. Do you have any updates on the situation?
Lanny Dean
EF5
I am a little late to this thread as I haven't been on for a while now, but I wanted and feel I need to address part of the comment from the "Fire Chief" or whoever he was regarding "not one single chaser/out of state person helped" Of course that verbiage is not in verbatim but close enough. This thread is not about me and I am certainly not trying to make it about me but there is a back story here with video that I feel needs to be told......
I had surgery 4 days prior to this event (and while I probably shouldn't have been chasing) I decided I had to play this event. After leaving the McLean Storm I ended up roughly 1/2 mile from Carter and documented tornadogenesis which would become the Elk City wedge. I could not have been far from Tony at some point but luckily did not have the same outcome. That said, After letting the tornado pass just to my north, I proceeded into Elk City (not knowing just yet that it had taken a direct hit.) Upon entering Elk City near the Country Club Estates and Golf Course, I saw the damage. I proceeded on into the estates and tried to assist folks - asking if they were okay, handing out a few bandages from my first aid kit to a few people who had only minor injuries at the time. Driving further into the estates, I ran over debris and got a flat tire. So I made a conscience decision to get out and try to render aid if it was needed. At this time, THERE WERE NO FIRE TRUCKS, POLICE, AMBULANCES OR FISRT RESPONDERS on scene just yet. In fact, the only other person trying to render aid that I saw and spoke with was David Drummond who pulled in just after I did I believe. The worst injury I saw was to a baby that had a head injury and I gave the mother some bandages from my first aid kit - in the video you can clearly hear me asking fi the baby is okay. I will post both videos only because of issue I take with the comments made about no one assisting or helping. I spent well over three hours in Elk City trying to help and never once saw the Fire Chief or any Fire Chief for that matter. Obviously the ambulances and police finally started rolling in roughly 15-30 minutes after the tornado. I might add that I purposely did not film some stuff for obvious reasons...
That said and as mentioned, 4 days before this event I had surgery to place a chemo port in - sometime during the house to house search and trying to assist others as well as trying to change my flat tire, my port ripped and became dislodged. Obviously I started bleeding. Some very good folks who's house had just been destroyed helped me and beckoned an ambulance. Those kind folks helped me as much as they could. Not wanting to make this about me - I'll leave it at that. My complaint regarding this situation is where were those folks directly after the tornado? Because they certainly were not helping and were no where to be found, either near Carter or even closer to Elk City.
My intentions for posting the videos are not aimed at fueling any fires or ongoing issues - I just think it needs to be known that these locals were no where around after the fact when people needed them the most. I feel for Tony and hope this situation is or will be resolved soon.
I had surgery 4 days prior to this event (and while I probably shouldn't have been chasing) I decided I had to play this event. After leaving the McLean Storm I ended up roughly 1/2 mile from Carter and documented tornadogenesis which would become the Elk City wedge. I could not have been far from Tony at some point but luckily did not have the same outcome. That said, After letting the tornado pass just to my north, I proceeded into Elk City (not knowing just yet that it had taken a direct hit.) Upon entering Elk City near the Country Club Estates and Golf Course, I saw the damage. I proceeded on into the estates and tried to assist folks - asking if they were okay, handing out a few bandages from my first aid kit to a few people who had only minor injuries at the time. Driving further into the estates, I ran over debris and got a flat tire. So I made a conscience decision to get out and try to render aid if it was needed. At this time, THERE WERE NO FIRE TRUCKS, POLICE, AMBULANCES OR FISRT RESPONDERS on scene just yet. In fact, the only other person trying to render aid that I saw and spoke with was David Drummond who pulled in just after I did I believe. The worst injury I saw was to a baby that had a head injury and I gave the mother some bandages from my first aid kit - in the video you can clearly hear me asking fi the baby is okay. I will post both videos only because of issue I take with the comments made about no one assisting or helping. I spent well over three hours in Elk City trying to help and never once saw the Fire Chief or any Fire Chief for that matter. Obviously the ambulances and police finally started rolling in roughly 15-30 minutes after the tornado. I might add that I purposely did not film some stuff for obvious reasons...
That said and as mentioned, 4 days before this event I had surgery to place a chemo port in - sometime during the house to house search and trying to assist others as well as trying to change my flat tire, my port ripped and became dislodged. Obviously I started bleeding. Some very good folks who's house had just been destroyed helped me and beckoned an ambulance. Those kind folks helped me as much as they could. Not wanting to make this about me - I'll leave it at that. My complaint regarding this situation is where were those folks directly after the tornado? Because they certainly were not helping and were no where to be found, either near Carter or even closer to Elk City.
My intentions for posting the videos are not aimed at fueling any fires or ongoing issues - I just think it needs to be known that these locals were no where around after the fact when people needed them the most. I feel for Tony and hope this situation is or will be resolved soon.
Tony Laubach
EF5
I have no updates, Jeff... I have not heard one thing from anyone in a couple months... I am half tempted to just post the raw video on YouTube, close off the comments section, and just let it do its thing, regardless whether it has an outcome or not. I feel pretty confident the video clears me of any blatant wrong-doing, so I am not too worried at this point at anything coming back at me (nothing has ever been brought up to me indicating me in any trouble). Figure enough time has gone by now where the limited brain cells of some people have moved on to something else, so I don't feel like I will absorb the firestorm I did immediately after this event. They have their story, and I have mine plus the proof, so at this point, it's gonna back a stock video on my YouTube library and I'll leave it there to do whatever.
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