Is this site dead?

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As for the quality of posts, well that's in the eye of the beholder. But, I just don't buy the argument that some folks are so agitated by the "noise" that it justifies completely cutting off a discussion forum for events in progress.

I tend to agree Mike. This whole concept of "agitation by noise" is driven by historical events in past chaser social media circles namely WX-CHASE listserv. Back in the day of WX-CHASE (and I was there long ago in it's prime), it was a very vibrant source, with many members, and somewhat massive participation by those who were on there and knew about it. However, there began a series of FLAMES and FLAME WARS over the years which pissed a lot of people off and left a bad taste in many members mouths. In particular, many of the veterans, and seasoned chaser experts of the time, along with meteorologists, and professional weather researchers decided to take their game to a more highly moderated listserv where "more serious" discussion could be made without all the flames and hubris. This list was called CFDG (Chase Forecast Discussion Group). Indeed, I can see the point as a lot of the 'rif raff' the newbies, yahoos, spotters, and general weather interested public often made it difficult to have a decent discussion and sharing of forecasts amongst meteorologists and chasers without getting blasted. Myself, I was still somewhat 'new' to chasing in those days having only about 5 years of chase experience. I didn't make it over to CFDG. In later years I was nominated, but beat out at the time by Eric Nygen because of his recent photo success. Sad, because I think I could have contributed in that venue as well in a more mature discussion. Anyway, let me say that even though the noise to signal ratio on WX-CHASE was high, it was still a very fun, and lively...ALIVE...group. However, when all the CFDG members left it took a bit of the soul and spirit. WX-CHASE never returned to it's old glory, and I don't care what others say. I think it was somewhat 'glorious' even with all the flames. Folks could say and share whatever they damned well pleased which in many, but not all ways was a good thing.

After this Stormtrack was created in a website / forum format, and then CFDG took on the forum format. In many ways this improved communications, but in many ways it wasn't as good as well. Apparently all change brings both good and bad. Later, I heard from CFDG members that they were all disgruntled and tired of the rules, and for that reason there wasn't a lot of participation. Many joined Stormtrack just to be able to share with other chasers in a LESS moderated format. WX-CHASE continued to exist, and still exists today although most agree it is mostly dead and irrelevant nowadays. I still post and read on there occasionally though. Later after many left WX-CHASE it became dominated by a handful who would post and many many silent members that would just monitor, but not participate. For a lot of them, myself included, WX-CHASE became a bit of a blog for personal thoughts or events related to chasing. I admit, I over did it. Perhaps I alone ran a number off due to my many long winded discussions. I enjoyed those discussions though. For quite some time only a few personalities would dominate that list due to sheer contribution and commentary. As mentioned, I was one and certainly I recall Shane Adams was another. Sometimes it seemed like the Shane and Bill show. Often we would take different sides of a particular argument, but personally I think a lot of cool and good things came out of discussion with Shane and others. We all moved on, and as many might have noticed my propensity for inundating the chaser mediums with posts / opinions has certainly waned. Perhaps I have just run out of original things to say. Let's face it, many of us guys have talked just about every aspect of chasing there is it seems. :) Yes, I still have the ability to be long winded. :D

Anyway, I digress here. The point is WX-CHASE was vibrant and full of participation, and certainly colorful. The falling out and turn to more moderated modes kind of killed it or was the beginning of it's death. Bottom line: It is that historical perspective, and moderator / administrator mindset that drives the concept of WHY we need to have strict rules and moderation on Stormtrack. It is to maintain order and keep certain people from being offended and keep certain professional types participating without being offended. Does it work? Well, to some degree it has in the past, but does it still? You are arguing that it is killing Stormtrack and I must agree to a large degree you may be correct, although as stated in my other post it may also be related to the development of social media (Facebook) and it's inherit abilities and positive attributes.

I have noticed that WE CHASERS are becoming a bigger, less distinct, more commonplace group that are more spread out and communicate centrally less with less personal identity. We are more distributed and massive. It is not easy to identify who leads our 'group' anymore, or who the veteran or top chasers are. In many ways this reminds me of the music industry that used to be very small and focused with only a few gatekeeper record companies controlling and promoting music and top 40, etc. With the explosion of computers and internet technology and free downloading it has kind of killed the industry, but it is reborn in a lower individual profit but much more diverse and numerous (some would argue less skilled) musical artists and groups. It seems practically everyone sings or is in a band... I do. So, as Bob Dilan said.. "the times they are a changing".

Change can be good. Let's keep Stormtrack rules and moderation sane and relevant and consider opening up the additional venue of the Stormtrack Social Network.
 
I saw the changes begin when the NOWcasts changed. That was the biggest reason why I joined! Now everything feels so controlled.

Bring the freedoms of Nowcasting back! There is no other site I can find that you could post nowcasts!!

Well, on that note Eric, let me add that there was a huge change when non-firsthand accounts, and commentary / discussion was taken out of REPORTS. That was years ago, but back then REPORTS was an easy place to post your account and for interested public or other chasers to directly make posts about your report or the event. Result? What happened was the DISC section never really took off. I noticed that no one wanted to take the time / trouble to create a new DISC thread and post there about someone's report. It was disjointed. You could post in DISC and the person that posted the REPORT may never notice the commentary, and might not ever reply. Granted the change was more organized and logical in some ways, but it really put a CHILL on the interaction and interest in the reports. Interest and activity definitely waned in my opinion.
 
I don't think veteran chasers were most upset about heavy-handed moderation, they just didn't want to deal with 'the community' anymore. As more new people become interested in chasing, more loudmouth idiots become interested in chasing. At some point, I'm guessing some of these guys threw their hands in the air and said "why do I want to be a part of this circus?" I don't blame them.

As a 'veteran' approaching 20 years now, the moderation hasn't bothered me too much. I've had my hand slapped before and understand the concept of rules. That said, I agree with them as long as there is impartial equanimity and judicious use of them. I have previously had my hand slapped, but on separate occasions have pointed out others being directly offensive to me where no actions were taken and I was ignored. I thought that was pathetic.

However generally speaking, I am more in your second category. I've been VERY long winded and a very active participant in discussions in the past. To some degree everything has already been said, and I'm a bit tired of talking. I also want others to have a say and make big contributions to discussions. Everyone has something to say.
 
I find it interesting to see more work done into discussing why the site is dying - versus discussing real weather...

Well in my case, that's a reflection of where my interests lie at this point. The psychology of how this forum has changed is far more fascinating to me than day to day weather or research papers or conferences.
 
I think sites like this are dying. Posting a forecast takes effort and I admit, if a storm is going on in Wisconsin I don't care that much. I'm not going to sit there for an hour studying the soundings and weather in Wisconsin when I have no intention or interest in chasing it. Yes, I care about the weather. Yes, I'm fascinated by the storms, but like everyone else, it's YOUR storm and not my storm. I have to go to work, I have thngs to do, so it's a matter of priority. More than anything, Facebook has changed the whole world. I have my 100 friends who I care about and care about me and that's it. I share with them., but why should I care about the 10,000 people I don't know and don't know me. I'm not trying to be famous, I'm not trying to be great, I just like storms. I can forecast or post here and no one else cares. But my 100 friends on Facebook actually do care because I know them and they know me. It matters to them... Big deal, so what, I'm one of 800 people who sees a tornado in Oklahoma on a given day... There's 800 people here who saw it and there's nothing exciting about it other than the personal story. On my facebook site, there are people who actually love hearing the story or share in the beauty of the storm. What happened here on Storm Track is the people egos' took over. The whole veteran vs newbie thing exploded in the face of this forum. It was a conflict of how to chase and why to chase. Anfd it fracture the leadership of this board and most chase boards. The chaser community grew so large that no one cares any more if YOU see a torando. They saw it too. NO one cares what you forecast because THEY can forecast too now or just follow SPC. It's almost to the point when anyone can do it so why listen to you... They got it too. Really, the board will pick up in March and April, but it will never recover. No one wants to work much any more and make a real forecast, they just want to chase the storm and get the tornado... It speaks volumes about the way we approach life today, the whole issue of the Occupy Wall Street protest --- no one want to work hard to achieve anything in our society -- they just are happy to cut corners and get results. It's why boards like this die --- egos take over, people are experts today with no knowledge, and knowledge can be gained just by getting online. You don't have to think any more.... It's done for you.... And the discussion and serious interaction of boards like this are no longer needed.

Well said Jeff. I agree with a lot of what you say. There is certainly perspective truth in a lot of it. I can't agree with all of it though. I'm on Facebook, and really I feel it is impersonal and no one cares. Most of those people are not really my 'Friends', most, I have never met but are just chasers or acquaintances of chasers. I am new to Facebook and am still getting the lay of the land, but from what I have seen so far is most people talk about completely non-chase and idiotic things on there. Most people are mostly interested in posting and sharing what they do and don't really care that much about what anyone else is doing. I mean sure everyone reads the news feed and then goes and comments on interesting topics but most of that feed just flies by and I never see 95% of it. I can't keep up with every non-chase targeted thing out there. To some degree Facebook annoys me and I keep considering quitting it, because I'm not really sure I like the whole concept of sharing any comment or aspect of my personal life with certain friends amongst mostly strangers, chaser public, ex business acquaintances, personal friends, family etc. It seems a very odd concept to me where a person is basically on a stage shouting to such a diverse audience things that could be offensive to some, misunderstood by others, but mostly just irrelevant to them. Regardless, to some degree I see and agree with your point versus the perspective of the medium of Stormtrack forum. I think you are right. A lot of it is about Ego whether it is Stormtrack or Facebook. That said, Ego is part of what drives us all to want to participate, excel, and share. We all like to do well, and be successful at what we do. We all like to share what we enjoy. We also all like to be commended or acknowledged by our peers. Ego itself is not evil, but I agree too much Ego can be a problem. You are probably right about a lot of it though. Not many really care. It is also partly that discovery which has limited my participation / correspondence in recent years. You are either on Storm Chasers or you are not. Fortunately I chase because I love the storms and weather. Indeed, I have found that I am unable to ignore severe weather and pretty much so far have to chase it. I am compelled and Mother Nature has captured me like a distant black hole might capture nearby stellar material. I think I used to have a big Ego / drive about chasing and it was pretty much all encompassing and engulfing. It tended to dwarf and suck in all other aspects of my life and take away from them, - even my health. I used to think there were NONE more passionate than me about chasing, and at the time that may have been true; however I think in the long haul I have seen that there are many others driven pretty much as much as myself and really just as talented, and perhaps more so. Kudos to all of you. Certainly there are those who have bagged more torns or more photogenic. Certainly most everyone has produced more video than me as I continue to blow it in that regard and still haven't bothered to produce even one DVD even though I have probably near 1 TB or more of video. Over the years there have been a lot of hard chases that were mostly non-productive at a time when tornadoes were scarce in TX or nearby with the pattern favoring the north or lately the east with significant tornadoes and outbreaks which I have been mostly unwilling to hunt down and make the solo drives on. So instead rather those patterns have favored other chasers perhaps significantly less experienced than myself. That is all good I suppose. I have learned it appears I am in it for the long haul. There are many, many years of chasing left for me and many adventures. I may not share it all with the rest of you, or possibly even any of it, but I do it because I love it, and it is a part of me. I have come to accept that fact. Yep, everybody sees all the tornadoes nowadays. Everyone's a 'genius'.... it's a dime a dozen. There are so many chasers and with the help of SPC there is always someone on the storm that you decided to not chase or didn't want to commit to drive to. Also, look at YouTube, everybody posts incredible video there. I always held on to my video if I didn't sell it (and I never really bothered to sell any of it - LOL), because I didn't want it to lose value. But now it's all posted directly out there. There's always somebody videotaping in their back yard or a complete Newbie chaser that gets something breathtaking and all given away practically for free. Basically from what I can tell there is a VERY limited market for chaser video nowadays. So, I have started my own YouTube channel. Not much on there now, but I am in the process of setting up a wireless network drive which makes it easy to access all my historic video and photos. I may start releasing some of that on YouTube or even making a DVD. All of that I will do mostly just to share with others interested, and not really for the money.

BTW: I love your "people are experts today with no knowledge" quote. LOL! I think that is most notable / memorable, and says a lot about society today, but it's also just kind of a cool / funny quote.

On the final note... though I think these boards are still needed. Mainly because we are organized around a topic chasing, in a forum dedicated to chasing, and we can have an organized thread on this concept / subject which in my opinion is productive and useful. For instance I enjoyed your insight and commentary, but would have never seen it on Facebook I don't think. I forget if I have you listed as a friend. If not, I'll have to remedy it. What do you think of the Ning / Stormtrack Social Media concept? The biggest downside (which may also be a big plus) is that the rest of your "friends" and acquaintances may not be able to see or interact with your posts to it. I'm sure it can be set to allow the public to view, but I think they have to be a Ning member and join the Stormtrack social network in order to be able to post and interact much like Facebook works.
 
You sound like I used to. My advice is to (a) leave the site or (b) just accept it for what it is and move on. I've done both. ST, like most everything in chasing, will never be what it once was. That's just the way it is.

Very brief for the old Shane...concise and to the point however. I think I haven taken a different tact which I suppose has worked out ok. So far, I don't do (a), I remain a member but just am not as active. (B), however - yep, accept it and just keep moving. Apparently change is constant even in chasing social circles. I'm pretty much chill about it though. Doesn't really bother me if I don't like the format that much, I just do other things. Everyone is never going to be happy about something all the time. Ditto...just the way it is.
 
Thanks, Bill Tabor, for the historical perspective. So, in spite of the external influences such as social media, maybe these things do run in cycles and policy decisions on the part of site administrators have something to do with the quality of the experience of the members.

So, going back to the demise of the NOW and FCST threads, I challenge the idea that too much "noise" drove off a significant number of posters. The drop-off in posts occured AFTER the policy change that was meant to minimize the noise. You can see the numbers I posted above 2011 vs. 2010.

The virtue of ST, in my opinion, is that it is an ORGANIZED site. It's gone through periods of relatively more or less moderator restrictions, but tried to keep some semblance of organization and that's a good thing. But, why on earth would you just kill a whole category such as the NOW threads? That makes absolutely no sense to me. It's not like anyone is forced to read those posts. And, the upcoming newbies or even just the middle-of-the-road members I think are interested in on-going events and glad to make a contribution (like a nice radar grab) even if they aren't personally chasing the storm. What's wrong with that? Why does that hurt the site?

Also, I'll go back again to the destruction of the Historical Chases section. Why in the world would anyone bury legitimate accounts of historical events like that? It's like going out and burning the last existing manuscript of a history book. So far, no response from any of the site administrators on that question.

I truly hope that someone has alerted the site owner to this conversation as I hope he is paying attention.
 
I do want to reiterate what Skip posted on this yesterday (see back a page or two), although it got buried here in replies that have been posted since yesterday evening.

The old category of NOW, standing alone, is no longer in existence, but the FCST and NOW categories were simply merged this past spring. If you have a nowcast-esque post, then you can post it in an existing FCST thread, which encumbers a shared purpose for mutually exclusive types of posts.

Ok, got it. Thanks! Hopefully it will make sense to post NOW in FCST.
 
So, going back to the demise of the NOW and FCST threads, I challenge the idea that too much "noise" drove off a significant number of posters. The drop-off in posts occured AFTER the policy change that was meant to minimize the noise. You can see the numbers I posted above 2011 vs. 2010.

That may be the case Mike, but 2011 was a very unusual chase year in my opinion. For instance we had no Spring chasing in central TX. Nothing in March. I don't recall that ever happening. We had that odd consistent La Nina pattern which pushed storms to the east in the AL, TN, MS, NC region where we had significant tornadoes. Typically all the chasers are located in and focused on the southern, central, and northern plains. The fact that the season started so late and was significantly displaced I think had a lot to do with lack of participation. Not sure why I never posted anywhere until the Fall I posted my summary. I've never done that before. I think it probably had a lot to do with the fact that the season started so late and I hadn't been posted. It started so late and then ended and by the time it ended I was off to vacation in Colorado, and other things and just kind of got off topic and never got back. At one point I started spending a lot of time analyzing my May 24th chase El Reno, damage path, video, etc but ended up getting so bogged down in the analysis that I never posted any of it because I got tired of looking at it. My video mostly sucked on that event anyway.
 
LOL! This may be more than I've posted in 2 years. I think I'll let my fingers rest awhile and let others absorb / comment on all of this while I go do other stuff. Consider that Ning Stormtrack social network though. I may start a new thread on the topic. It is similar to Facebook, but would just be based around the topic of chasing. I believe all members however would be "friends" with everyone on the network so in that sense it would be like everyone is on and available at Stormtrack. It would be set up allowing all the Stormtrack members on. As I recall the format is very similar to FB, but may have some differences which make it more suitable. I'll have to log on to Ning and check it out / peruse and observe the subtleties.

Another option as a moderator mentioned I believe would be to do it in Facebook. The only way I know how to do that is with a Group, and I'm not sure I am all that impressed with groups. Groups commentary and everything is pretty much available to everyone in FB unless you make it private and secret. To have a secret (invisible) Stormtrack Group on Facebook might be a bit weird.
 
So, going back to the demise of the NOW and FCST threads, I challenge the idea that too much "noise" drove off a significant number of posters. The drop-off in posts occured AFTER the policy change that was meant to minimize the noise. You can see the numbers I posted above 2011 vs. 2010.

Also, I'll go back again to the destruction of the Historical Chases section. Why in the world would anyone bury legitimate accounts of historical events like that? It's like going out and burning the last existing manuscript of a history book. So far, no response from any of the site administrators on that question.

I truly hope that someone has alerted the site owner to this conversation as I hope he is paying attention.

Mike,

I'll answer what I can. This is ultimately Tim's board, so he retains authority over what final decisions are made in regards to site restructuring. With that having been said, there was a thread last winter discussing what changes members would like to see made with Stormtrack for 2011, which sparked a coterminous discussion about the same topic in a private section of the forum for moderators and administrators; discussions on this topic ensued off and on for months until Tim decided to overhaul the Target Area in the spring. Some of this was a collective decision amongst the standing moderator panel, considering input from members that was shared both in that thread itself and outside of the forum.

The NOW and FCST threads were not dismantled; they were combined. This was ultimately a collective decision because there was some concern that the Target Area rules were too complicated, as a slightly different set of rules existed for FCST, NOW, DISC and REPORT threads, and after infractions were issues, we often got feedback that there were simply far too many rules and regulations to follow, which was not user-friendly. Remember that just because you might take issue with a change like this, preferring the old system over the new, doesn't mean that a particular subset of the membership was happy with the status quo prior to these changes being made. Most of us agreed with Tim that it was confusing, so he made the final changes to the Target Area in late May. A large reason for the drop-off was actually because permission to post in the Target Area, when the aforesaid changes were implemented, was altered so that administrators must approve a member before s/he can post; this was not the case in the past, and there were a flurry of problematic "one-liners" posted in almost every thread.

You have raised a legitimate question about the historical storm chasing section. If I recall, there was rather little activity in that section compared to other parts of the forum, although there is nothing saying that those topics can't somehow be recovered if Tim chose to revert back to the previous modus operandi for those types of posts.

Tim has been alerted to the existence of this thread.
 
Kind of proves my point, doesn't it? No one wants to talk to about dryline mechanics (I do!)

While yes there is a lack of discussion of technical topics. I have found Storm Track to bring about discussion that would never be found in other social media. For example, I love the toy weather model thread (that is back in the basic discussion section?). I found it fascinating because while the thread author wanted to develop a simple global climate/weather model (in an attempt to learn about weather), it almost mirrored what I did several years ago (except instead of making a global model, I went toward the mesoscale end). I wanted to help foster that discussion, I went so far and developed and provided some radiation code, and I learned some stuff myself in the process. This is why Storm Track is not irrelevant to me yet. Which brings me to another great quote from this thread...

Had to remind them that they also had to ask the same stupid questions at one time. How soon we forget. Paying dues works in both directions - climbing up and looking back looking down.
 
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I have found Storm Track to bring about discussion that would never be found in other social media. For example, I love the toy weather model thread (that is back in the basic discussion section?). I found it fascinating because while the thread author wanted to develop a simple global climate/weather model (in an attempt to learn about weather), it almost mirrored what I did several years ago (except instead of making a global model, I went toward the mesoscale end). I wanted to help foster that discussion, I went so far I went and developed provided some radiation code, and I learned some stuff myself in the process.

Not trying to derail this thread, but your post reminded me of this: http://www.xkcd.com/979/
 
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