Is this site dead?

[Ken Johnson]

I noticed this a lot this past storm season. Used to, there was a wealth of knowledge and excitement being share about up coming chases. But last year, hardly anything at all. I think it's moderated far too much.

 

[Shane Adams]

Sorry to post this here, but since there is no longer a sub-forum for site-related discusion, I'll go ahead and post this here.

What the hell has happened to Stormtrack? Anyone who has been a member of this site over the years can see the pace of discussion has noticably slowed down over the recent months.

I personally think the decision to prohibit "NOW" threads was a grave mistake. Obvisously, not every chaser can personally chase every severe weather event. In my case, I'm most often 1,200 miles removed from the action, but I appreciated the observations and useful links posted on the old NOW threads. For those that were bothered by the precious "signal-to-noise" ratio, then just don't read the thread! I, for one, appreciated the input. Greensburg was a good example. It wasn't like that many chasers were out on that storm, but it was an important and historical night, and the dilegence of those following it and providing useful links in the NOW thread was a credit to this membership.

What was even more of a mistake was the decision to not get input from the general membership when the site was re-organized. Any organization that withdraws from getting input from its membership on policy questions is doomed.

And - little things - like when the Target forum was condensed, somehow the "historical" sub-forum was deleted (the individual posts were buried), represented interesting and useful accounts of historical events that some of us appreciated.

I'm sure my post will probably get me banned from this site, but it seems to be dead at this point anyway. I just hope those who care about preserving Stormtrack will chime in and maybe wake up the leaders and encourage them to keep a good thing going and quite alienating their members.

You sound like I used to. My advice is to (a) leave the site or (b) just accept it for what it is and move on. I've done both. ST, like most everything in chasing, will never be what it once was. That's just the way it is.

 

[rdale]

I find it interesting to see more work done into discussing why the site is dying - versus discussing real weather...

 

[Rob H]

I find it interesting to see more work done into discussing why the site is dying - versus discussing real weather...

Kind of proves my point, doesn't it? No one wants to talk to about dryline mechanics (I do!) - they'd rather rehash the same drama every year. Lightbars, site dying, how close is too close, is selling video bad, blah blah blah. For me, the real in-depth discussions tend to happen on Facebook and sometimes ST chat.

I'd add option (c) to Shane's options though - accept it for what it is, and try to make the site better. I love that people like Duda still patrol these forums and answer all sorts of questions about fluid dynamics and whatnot.

 

[Mike Johnston]

Rob, appreciate the point, but I started this thread with a genuine interest in trying to improve/reverse some of the policy changes that I believe have contributed to a waning interest in this forum. I don't like the drama topics either, and believe me have no interest in lightbars, selling video, etc. When I opened the thread, I explained up front why I started it here - namely, there is no section available anymore for site-related discussion. BTW, I was one of 2 posters who actually made a forecast post for this past 11/7 event. Not that I expect a gold star (the guys that actually chased it and posted chase reports deserve the stars.)

Re: the influence of social media, since many have cited it as a factor I don't doubt it. I don't really understand it, though. Sites like this are oriented around a SUBJECT matter, and members can both contribute and learn from each other. I don't understand why they necessarily have to be "friends." Another member could be a complete stranger to me, but if the substance of his/her observations, information, thoughts, etc. is valuable to me and others, then there's still a benefit and purpose to a site like this.

 

[rdale]

Mike - I wasn't pointing at you. I'm saying this has been the most active topic the forum has seen in months. Tells you something?

 

[Mike Johnston]

Mike - I wasn't pointing at you. I'm saying this has been the most active topic the forum has seen in months. Tells you something?

Oh, my post was in response to Rob Hurkes. I didn't know your name was Rob, also. Now we know.

Well, the responses here tell me that folks were probably very aware of the drop-off in participation, but no one really wanted to initiate a discussion about it. The "elephant in the living room" effect. Many different opinions, so I'm not sure there is a concensus "answer" to the problem. At a minimum, though, I hope the site administrators:

1. Provide a sub-forum for site-related discussion.

2. Reconstruct the "historical chase" section if technically possible.

In the meantime, I myself will try to follow Rob Hurkes' recommendation c).

 

[Jeff Duda]

Apparently a thread like this has gotten the attention of some of the core members of this forum. To my count, 25 different people have posted to this thread. Thus at least we know that people are still visiting the forum. Those 25 people are among those who will keep this site going even when everyone else leaves. People just aren't posting as much as they used to. You can't force people to post, and many may not have much to talk about. Rob H. made some very good points in that most things have already been brought up, discussed, and moved on from (Rob, I'm always up for discussing deep meteorological/scientific topics...if you have anything itching or jonesing, post it). You can only do so much. Things like forecast discussions and chase summaries don't get old, though. I wasn't aware that the whole "people leeching off your chase forecast without doing any of the work" thing was so bad that people refuse to post here anymore. But that was discussed in another thread, and I'm not going to revive it here.

I will say this, though. There is something that social media sites like Facebook and Twitter can never do to replace an organized online forum. In order to communicate with others on Facebook, you have to be friends with them first, which implies you have to know who they are. I suppose you can also find these people via them posting on your friends' accounts, but you still won't be able to converse in such an open manner unless you're friends with them. This forum is wide open so that anyone who is a member can see posts from any other member without having to go through some pre-requisites. The names of all of the members of the forum are even provided in an organized list! Imagine what that would be like for Facebook and Twitter with so many people having accounts (and many of them using altered names). When I first joined Stormtrack in 2008, I only knew the names of some of the major chasing greats like Tim Marshall, Jim Leonard, Chuck Doswell, Gene Moore etc. When I started looking through forums I didn't see any of those names, but I saw plenty of other names of people who had been chasing for a long time that I didn't even know existed! It opened up my world as far as the people in storm chasing were concerned. I would've never gotten that on Facebook (unless I was one of those groupies who just friend requests every single person they come across...which I find creepy and pathetic). The moderated nature of Stormtrack also helps to keep the noise and attacks down. I like it. I've had minimal trouble with the moderation here.

Maybe we all need to just put a little more effort into visiting the site and participating in the discussion instead of going with the easy thing and posting a quick sentence with pics and videos to Facebook or Twitter.

 

[Bill Tabor]

Some good points on here Mike in your opening statement. I was unaware NOW had been killed. I don't think that is a good idea for the site unless those now comments can be made in the MISC area which was previously DISC. I agree NOW is certainly useful and relevant and encourages participation and sharing between members even if they are not chasing. It is kind of a communications area between those who are arm chair chasing.

As for the site being dead.. I'd say certainly no, but I do believe we have seen a decline in peak activity of Stormtrack and will continue to see that because of social media...namely Facebook. Pretty much every chaser or wannabe is now on Facebook and sharing storm related topics. Even myself, who held off until this summer, am now on Facebook ([email protected]). Facebook allows you to post pictures, video, forecasts, and allows discussion although in my opinion it certainly does NOT take the place of Stormtrack. The thing about Facebook is it's vanity. It is all ME centered and most people only want to post about themselves...not that many actually hunt around and read everything everyone posts. If you have a large number of friends it is kind of impossible to keep up with. Also with Facebook you are sharing your chase stuff with a ton of non-chaser friends, family, business associates, etc and that likely doesn't make complete sense for everyone. The beauty of Stormtrack is that it is centralized and organized around topics and allows a chaser to share in a meaningful targeted way. That said, I still think the trend will be toward Facebook because of it's informality and lack of rules. We have had a standard migration pattern of chaser users for some time. Originally it was SCH Storm Chaser Homepage and Wx-Chase website and listserv. Due to too many flame wars and disagreements and limitations of the website people migrated to CFDG listserv (more for professional meteorologists and weather researchers), and to Stormtrack. From there, due to various limitations they have been moving to Facebook, or at times other forums which mostly have come and gone and never really caught on. I might add, that I myself have participated in Stormtrack less this past season. A lot of it was due to lack of severe weather. A lot of it had to do with working on other stuff. However one issue is the fact that when I chase and have stuff to post or discuss I now have multiple places to go and update which spreads out my time and focus on any particular chaser sharing method. For instance, I have to update posts to Wx-Chase (yes I still belong), and my website (www.TornadoXtreme.com), and then Stormtrack, and now also Facebook and possibly Youtube for videos. I believe most would agree that is a bit much. Also last season I didn't even get around to posting to any of them. I chased about 10 times but just didn't share the information much except for a limited summary after the season was over. I got about 5 to 6 tornadoes in the few times I went out.

One big advantage that Facebook offers is the ability for each chaser to individually share all their stuff and talk about it, all in one place. This is a boon for those chasers that are not web savvy for creating their own website, or don't really have the cash / time to create and maintain one. Facebook is a bit a personal chase website for the other guys. That said, I don't think it does a very good job. It's not completely focused on chasing, and it's hard to see / review historical threads and conversations or picture / video galleries. It does ok with pics and video, but of course anything you post there basically becomes Facebook's property because they have complete usage rights of anything you post.

I would hazard to suggest, that Stormtrack is good, but it's format is limited in many ways and at the moment not keeping up with the latest development tech trends in internet sharing. It could somehow use a facelift or alternative supportive mode. Ok,... I've GOT it! What Stormtrack likely needs to do is migrate to a social networking format. That or have one concurrent to the existing Forum as an alternative supporting mode. Back a few years ago some of us local Texas Chasers that hang out around Central Texas created our own personal social network very similar to Facebook, but targeted only to chasers (locally). Now that I think about it, that is what Stormtrack needs to become. The good news is it is very easy to do and doesn't cost anything. Someone just has to start it and name it / associate it with Stormtrack for the official chaser blessing. How do you do it? Go over to Ning: http://www.ning.com/ and set it up. Then send out invitations and allow people to join / share.

Personally, I think that would be really cool. I've been really torn about mixing in my chasing with other family, friend, business related stuff on Facebook as I have so many more associations through chasing and the signal to noise for other family and friends gets cluttered and difficult and often they can't relate. If Stormtrack did that, (and I think it makes sense to have it in ADDITION to the forum/website) then I would probably move all my Facebook storm chasing related activity the the Ning based Stormtrack social site.

What do the rest of you think? Are you ready to NING?

 

[Skip Talbot]

Some good points on here Mike in your opening statement. I was unaware NOW had been killed. I don't think that is a good idea for the site unless those now comments can be made in the MISC area which was previously DISC. I agree NOW is certainly useful and relevant and encourages participation and sharing between members even if they are not chasing. It is kind of a communications area between those who are arm chair chasing.

Post your nowcasts in the Forecast thread. If the post isn't a forecast but relevant to an ongoing event, you can post it in the MISC thread.

What do the rest of you think? Are you ready to NING?

The problem I see with Ning is that its just another site that everyone has to migrate over to. G+ is floundering right now because everyone's friends are still on Facebook and they don't have much incentive to make the switch. If Stormtrack were to move to social media, it should probably be incorporated directly into Facebook, where most of the traffic is. What we need are threaded discussions organized by topic and sortable by date and title. You can't find anything on Facebook right now. Its just a huge room where everyone is talking at the same time.

If there was some way to corral all of the Facebook posts, pictures, and videos into organized threads, then Facebook would be an awesome place for the chaser community to post. People could dump all of their chase photos into their own galleries, and then they could be organized by date somewhere so others could browse through them at later times. Searching the content of posts is badly needed too. If you miss something on the news feed its pretty much gone forever, unless you want to dig through mountains of posts from everyone.

 

[Jesse Risley]

Some good points on here Mike in your opening statement. I was unaware NOW had been killed. I don't think that is a good idea for the site unless those now comments can be made in the MISC area which was previously DISC. I agree NOW is certainly useful and relevant and encourages participation and sharing between members even if they are not chasing. It is kind of a communications area between those who are arm chair chasing.

I do want to reiterate what Skip posted on this yesterday (see back a page or two), although it got buried here in replies that have been posted since yesterday evening.

The old category of NOW, standing alone, is no longer in existence, but the FCST and NOW categories were simply merged this past spring. If you have a nowcast-esque post, then you can post it in an existing FCST thread, which encumbers a shared purpose for mutually exclusive types of posts.

From the Target Area rules:

6. Message types.
* FCST is for meteorological discussion of severe weather which is either forecast or is underway.

http://www.stormtrack.org/forum/showthread.php?27752-SPECIAL-RULES-Target-Area

One of the springtime site-related modifications was to make the Target Area more simplistic, which we have done, though some apparently did not understand or catch on to the change, as evidenced by a recurrent misunderstanding that NOW-esque posts are simply no longer allowed in the Target Area. The "underway" verbiage is synchronous with the same purpose served by the former NOW posts that previously had to be posted as a separate category.

 

[Rob Wadsworth]

Funny - some tolerate the 21 questions, Farmville, and a plethora of adverts on Facebook - but will not tolerate newbee questions on this forum? That dog don't hunt. As the years pass, there will always be another new crew of freshmen to ask the same questions. No one expecting you to answer them, although elective it would be polite. Or one may even ignore them altogether if they like. Either one or both is fine too. (On a Ham radio forum where I used to moderate, senior members that are radio savvy disliked the newbs and put them down as conveniently often as possible. Had to put a stop to that. Had to remind them that they also had to ask the same stupid questions at one time. How soon we forget. Paying dues works in both directions - climbing up and looking back looking down.

If something has been lost here and the threat to lose this site to Facebook and Farmville fanaticism is too great, then the responsibility is yours as much as mine. Hopefully there has been enough sobering and humbling collections of lose ends and realizations to consider posted here. Some nice thoughts on this thread. At least, that is what I can gather from reading between the lines of many of you that have posted here on this thread so far.

However, I'll bet that this thread is soon forgotten after the first month of Spring - provided we get a better tornado season than we did last year . . .

 

[Jeff Duda]

Unfortunately, threads/posts on Stormtrack are generally only well organized when either the thread title is adequate and/or threads are tagged. I see very few threads ever get tagged, which means the skill of any search through these threads won't turn up as many good leads as would searching through threads that are well tagged.

Speaking of moderation, isn't the policy 6-month terms for moderators? Hasn't it been well over a year since the last election? I believe it should be time to have another vote.

 

[cdcollura]

Good day all,

This site ... And it's a shame - Has definitely toned down alot in terms of activity.

Basically, Facebook has supplanted MUCH of Stormtrack's activity (outside of weeding through the numerous "Farmville" and "Cafe World" requests there).

Many pictures can be posted there, and comments made (offensive or not), and no infractions / little moderation. Twitter and (even worse) MySpace are similar (the latter more spam / viruses).

The thing I really miss is the collaboration we all used to have in the "target area" and forecast threads. This year (2012), and in fact, on one of those MAJOR chase days (May 22 or 24, forget which day), I never even saw a forecast thread at all, not until WHEN tornadoes were already happening.

I used to really enjoy those "week-in-advance" model-based discussions, leading up to the event, often with a separate "now" thread if it actually verified. You simply cannot discuss that (in that manner) on Facebook. Hearing everyones opinions on a daily target WAS also really cool too.

 

[Bill Tabor]

While I do think Facebook is indeed part of the force pulling people away from traditional message boards like this, there are some long-standing chasers who apparently felt like they would go through the work to post forecasts, only to have those who are newer and have expressed interest in chasing to assumedly "leech" off of their forecasts as opposed to doing the legwork and learning to properly forecast for themselves. I have no idea how bad this problem really is, but apparently the perception of it, whether real or imagined, publicly discourages more people from posting forecasts than it used to.

Jesse, I do think there is some truth to this. That is one reason I don't post forecasts all that much anymore, but only part of the reason. That also assumes a bit of vanity that your forecasts are so good that everyone covets them. However, SPC has gotten so good in the last few years IMO they have taken much of that issue away. Indeed, it is often redundant to try and add to what they have already said generally speaking. I still can do forecasts earlier and know what is going on or has changed before the latest SPC Outlook is posted and that is still an advantage. Also they may occasionally miss something that I think I see, or I may have a slightly different take on it. For the most part however, they are certainly sufficient for the beginning / non-forecasting chaser to get into plenty of trouble.

The other reasons I don't post my forecast is I don't want to contribute to the chaser / convergence hype and start a feeding frenzy to get more people out on the roads to compete with me or get in my way (potentially). I don't like the mass convergence and I have seen it at it's worst. Also, I don't want to give my opinion to the masses if I agree that it is a Go / No Go decision to chase. I think a lot of newbies pay attention (and even more seasoned chasers) and determine if they are going to chase based on if "everybody" else will be out. I'd prefer they make that decision on their own. That said, I do still share some, and I am not always down on letting everyone know my opinion of go/no go. Sometimes I even do that myself to bounce my forecast thoughts off others and give it a "truth" test to see if I am crazy about what I am seeing or if there is general consensus.

Anyway, and interesting topic and it could certainly be make into it's own thread. Come to think of it have we had a thread on that topic?

PS: SEE, that is one way that Stormtrack still rules over Facebook. Try and figure out a way for a lot of people across the board in chasing having a focused discussion on a topic (thread) on Facebook. That is like herding cats. So IMO, obviously we still need ST.