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I just don't get it....PDS

  • Thread starter Thread starter Elinor McLennon
  • Start date Start date
Was it sunny and less windy when the tornado came around Roll, vici area?

I was headed northwest on 270 within an hour of the tornado being reported on the ground. The most sun I saw all day was between Watonga and Reisling, but I still wouldn't call it sunny. There was that high thin broken layer and I'd say 30-50% coverage low-mid level broken stuff. I drove around in OKC around 1115-1300 and it was very windy, 25-35 from the SSE (my estimate) and it was completely overcast. The whole day I was thinking to myself, I can't see much happening today, it just doesn't look and feel the way I understand it should other than the strong moist low level winds.

Driving 270 I could see darkened sw-ne oriented linear bases within the whole overcast layer, but no real storm structure visible other than the lowered bases of the largely or completely hidden supercell structures of the storms that dropped stuff.
 
Seems like the bigger tornadoes don't occur on days with so much cloud cover, temps around 74, 20 - 30 mph winds with gust higher than that

With a southeast surface wind, the stronger the wind the better. The stronger the surface wind the more low level wind shear you have, and the better your chances for tornadogenesis.
 
In my experience, stronger sfc winds often (almost always?) reduce hodograph curvature and 0-1 km bulk shear, and thus SRH. I think the more that "off-hodograph" storm motion contributes to SRH (e.g. a strongly veered storm motion or relatively backed low-level winds)... the less of an impact a stronger sfc wind will have on reducing SRH. But every hodograph is different, so don't quote me on that.

Actually, several of the nastier tornadoes I can think of had light/decoupled sfc flow in the ambient environment (<12 kt)... including the 5-12-04 Harper F4, 5-22-04 Hallam F4, and the super-long-track Arkansas tornado from 2-05-08. This really serves to maximize the SRH, particularly in cases like 5-12-04 where the LLJ isn't all that strong.
 
With a southeast surface wind, the stronger the wind the better. The stronger the surface wind the more low level wind shear you have, and the better your chances for tornadogenesis.

(Can a moderator perhaps split this off into a different / new thread?)

Not necessarily. Strong surface winds may create strong extremely-near-surface (e.g. 0-10 m) wind shear, but we typically look for wind shear in the 0-1, 0-3, and 0-6 km layers. If 6 km winds are 40 kts from the southwest, then southerly surface winds of 30 kts will create LESS wind shear than southerly surface winds of 5 kts. Think about this in terms of a hodograph -- the "longer" the vector between, for example, the 6 km wind and the surface wind, the stronger the wind shear between those levels. Strong low-level, but above-surface, winds (e.g. at 850 mb) are often desireable, but that's not really the surface wind. Let's look at any example hodograph.

Note that the hodograph below represents that of a VEERING wind profile (i.e. the winds veer from southerly to west-southwesterly at 6 km). This is a straight-line hodograph despite having winds that veer with height:

hodograph_strength_of_sfc_wind.png


The red line represents a wind profile characterized by a surface wind of 30 kts from the south, a 3km wind of ~40 kts from the southwest, and a 6 km wind of 60 kts from the west-southwest. The red star represents an approximate storm motion for a right-moving supercell. Now, let's look at the blue lines... The only difference is that we now have a surface wind of 10 kts from the south, with the 3km and 6 km winds the same as for the red wind profile. Note that the change in the surface wind has had some change in the winds between the sfc and 3 km. Similar to before, the blue star is an approximate storm motion for a right-moving supercell. Owing to a WEAKER surface wind, the blue wind profile actually has more 0-3km SRH! Because the red wind profile yields a straight-line hodograph, there won't be ANY 0-3km SRH for initial convection; any 0-3km SRH will only arise when storm can split, whereafter the right-moving supercell will take a motion that takes it off the hodograph. In the blue case, even a storm that does NOT have a storm motion that deviates from the norm will ingest some 0-3km SRH. The blue wind profile does have slightly stronger 0-6 km shear, but they're pretty similar in that regard.

Similarly, let's look at an example of a couple of vertical wind profiles for which a VEERED surface wind will actually resulted in higher 0-3 km SRH than a backed surface wind:
hodograph_dir_of_sfc_wind.png

Again, the red wind profile features southeasterly surface winds at 10 kts, south-southwesterly 3 km winds at 30 kts, and between southwesterly and south-southwesterly 6 km wind. So, the mid-level flow is a bit meridional, but this isn't uncommon sometimes, and often not "bad" given southeasterly surface winds. Yet again, despite both directional and speed shear in the red wind profile, this is a straight-line hodograph. So, unless you get a right-moving supercell (which probably won't happen until after a cell splits), there is actually 0 0-3 km SRH. Now, let's say the surface wind veers to the southwest and remains 10 kts -- this is the blue wind profile. Now, because there is some curvature of the low-level flow (e.g. no longer a straight-line hodograph), even initial convection (moving with the mean flow) will ingest some 0-3km SRH. If we take a supercell with minor right-moving characteristics, we note that the 0-3km SRH with this blue wind profile (i.e. veered sfc wind) actually has more 0-3 km SRH than the red wind profile. In other words, we would actually want a VEERED surface wind, since it yield better curvature to the low-level hodograph. In this case, the red wind profile does have marginally greater 0-6km shear.

From the two above idealized example hodographs, all of which feature winds that VEER and increase in speed with height (e.g. all hodographs have directional and speed shear). However, one can see that there are wind profiles for which weaker surface winds are better than strong surface winds. In addition, one can see that there are wind profiles for which a veered / SWrly surface wind yields a better hodograph (and greater 0-3km SRH) than a backed / SErly surface wind. This is not necessarily intuitive, but it brings about the importance of looking at a hodograph.

EDIT: The storm motions above are only eye-balled estimates, but they illustrate the point I think. The storm motion for the blue case in the 1st example may be too fast, but the point remains.
 
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Jeff,
Very well explained examples of how to use hodographs to evaluate shear parameters. Perhaps Skip's comment was a little more general (I don't know for sure; he will let you know). I like seeing stronger surface winds with very strong low-mid level winds not only because of the enhanced shear, but because stronger surface winds will hold back the cold pool outflow from storms, keeping the storms upright longer and keeping them from becoming outflow dominant. They also serve to enhance surface convergence where the RFD hits the ground under/near the meso.

Others have mentioned this on the other thread discussing this date, but another problem seemed to be that the good shear was too low with the best shear below 3 km. For good sustained supercells, you want deep layer (0-6 km) shear to be high, and many profiles showed winds actually backing and weakening with height above about 700 mb or so. That definitely hurt the chances for supercellular activity.
 
Did that assume that the supercells would right turn (they didn't IIRC)?
 
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