HD camcorder settings for chasing

[Bill Hark]

Many chasers have changed to HD and HD camcorders have multiple settings such as 24P. What settings are most chasers using? I am considering HD while planning to convert to SD for The Weather Channel or local broadcasts while keeping the HD for documentaries and future proofing.

Bill Hark

 

[Mike Peregrine]

Bill - if you want to work with the HV20 in 24p mode, you need to develop a special workflow to perform the process correctly. HV20 records in 60i, but to get 24p out of it you need to perform a pulldown correctly, otherwise your video will look fuzzy or compressed and have artifacts every few frames. There are many forums discussing this already (since most people want 24p to make a video look professional). Try these threads for suggestions:

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=218

and

http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/07/13/canon-hv20-24p-pulldown/

I think if you are using the HV20, go for the 24p ... it will make chase video look wonderful. But just make sure you are rendering the file correctly and the pulldown is done right. Otherwise you won't be happy with the final product.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: also a very helpful thread here: http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=8373

 

[scott r currens]

What is so great about 24p?

I have noticed that a lot of chasers want camcorders that can shoot 24p. It is my understanding those shooting 24p do so in an attempt to emulate motion picture footage. Is that the only reason to shoot 24p? What are the other advantages of 24p? I haven't seen a lot of footage shot in 24p but what I have seen appeared choppy and unnatural. Am I missing something?

 

[Mike Peregrine]

The primary advantage has to do with aesthetic value. It allows your final production to appear more like that of the motion picture standard rate. In addition, however, I have read that if a person is recording in this mode on one of the new camcorders, there is an additional advantage of a slightly slower than 30p rate in that you are effectively leaving the shutter open for a microsecond longer, which allows the single CMOS censor cameras to absorb slightly more light and color, which is what has helped the HV20 achieve lower light capabilities than some of the more expensive, 3 censor models.

For personal use or for uploading to broadcast TV, I would export video in SD mode at the standard 30fps, which the camcorder captures in a 60i stream. It has only been a recent possibility for videographers to perform a final render at the 24p rate by using the correct software. Until now, this is a rate that has only been attainable by using larger, more expensive cameras. Since it is a matter of aesthetics, I would say it would be an individual decision whether or not to render your final footage at that rate.

If you are noticing choppy or unnatural results, chances are the videographer is not rendering the video using the optimal method.

EDIT: I Googled "what's so great about 24p?" and came up with these:

http://www.cinematography.net/23.98-TheArchivalRecordingFrameRateOfChoice.htm

http://dvinfo.net/conf/archive/index.php/t-85328.html

One particular statement that caught my eye:

The 24P recording also requires more careful and disciplined camerawork for it to look good. Home video style, spontaneous framing and movements will not look good at the low frame rates of 24P because it will look stuttering (is that a word?). So really, all these features that people are exciting about (24P, mic input, etc.) are very esoteric and only needed in a very specific style of shooting. For the average enthusiast, shooting in 60i is fine and you can still have very good production values with careful attention to good camerawork.

What this means to me is that if a chaser is still shooting shaky, handheld stuff, video quality probably won't benefit much by shooting at the different rate. Bad video will still be bad video. But for someone willing to tripod and then go through the extra editing work, it could look pretty slick.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

Some good examples of this camera's performance here: http://hv20.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8

The first video of the race car is really impressive. Of course, that guy really knows how to perform the edit work. Even so, his shots are handheld - and very well done.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

Sorry to keep posting to this thread, but hopefully this will help a few folks out.

I've been reading about how to get the most out of your low light settings on the HV20. If you've tried out the automatic modes, you've probably noticed some of the typical consumer cam problems with grainy images in low light. Several things that will help:

-Try shooting with a combination of 24p and Cine Mode. Cine Mode is lower contrast than Tv mode, but there is more latitude (which we really need on most storms).

-Adjust the shutter speed to 1/30 (you have to have a mini-SD card in the slot for this to work ... there's a good tutorial on how to get it done here: http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=4195)

You actually have the ability to set your exposure manually if you follow those instructions, and it sounds like it helps quite a bit. You may not even need to mess with exposure much if you do the combo 24p/cine mode tip.

By the way ... if you haven't looked into it yet, you can pretty easily make an adapter to use your current 35mm lenses on this camera. Talk about some cool effects with DOF and stuff. You'll lose stops with most zooms, so it may not be great as a chasing tool ... but creatively, it's awesome.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

A note on use of Cine Mode with the HV20 ... this is sort of the video camera version of working with a RAW file. There is no sharpening or heavy contrast adjustment done in-camera. Rather, you export to your editor of choice and then make the adjustments to suit you. Tv mode produces great results in terms of sharpness/contrast, and the video I've been playing with looks much better than anything I've ever done before. Cine Mode definitely looks softer and less contrasty. If a person has plenty of light available to them under a storm base (sometimes we get lucky), then I'd go for Tv mode. Otherwise, I want the extra latitude of Cine Mode which can be tweaked later.

 

[Dan Dawson]

What about 30p?

I just bought a new Canon HV30, which has both 24p mode and a new 30p mode. I have only toyed around with it a bit, but I must say that 30p appears to be a good compromise between the good low-light performance of 24p mode, and the fluid motion of the 60i mode (plus, it's still progressive). I'm really looking forward to seeing how well it works out. However, I have never done any editing so far of either 24p or 30p. I looked at the HV20/30 forums, and found a lot of information about removing pulldowns and such using software tools for 24p mode, but nothing about the same for 30p mode. Am I to assume then that I should be able to directly edit 30p mode, say, in Adobe Premiere, without having to worry about any additional preconditioning of the exported video.

However, supposedly 30p does not render well directly to TV or DVD (NTSC, I guess) because these devices typically don't do 2:2 pulldown. However, again, supposedly, it works just fine for rendering to the web or for viewing directly on computer monitors. I don't claim to understand all the details though, so perhaps someone who is more knowledgeable than I can help me out.

Basically, I would like to try both 30p and 24p out in the field, but I'm looking for some guidance as to which one would be better.

Thanks!

Dan

 

[Mike Peregrine]

30p is actually the current NTSC standard. So when you are shooting in 30p, it's the same rate you were accustomed to on your previous camcorders. Both 24p and 30p are embedded in a 60i stream. The avi file that is produced by the camera is a transport (or container) that carries either rate of your choice.

Personally, I feel like for most chasing applications, 30p is the preference. It won't have the difficulty with fast camera movements we are prone to ... and I wouldn't even think about shooting in 24p for dash mounting. Camera shake + 24p = motion sick video.

24p is really more of a creative tool for a certain style you're wanting to achieve. But I totally think you're right: 30p is more useful for most chases. When the light gets low, you might consider some of the other options -