DoD to cutoff satellite data access to forecasters

[Blake Naftel]

I wanted to prepare a detailed replay to John because I strongly disagree that President Trump is more a threat to our rights than Presidents Biden and Obama. I believe it is the other way around.

However, given Jim's comment, I will cease and desist.

One thing I do appreciate is the ability to have a respectful dialog. Thanks to all.

It does not matter, in my opinion, who is actually "in the office" regarding public meteorological data, although individuals may certainly try to push agendas, be it whatever "side" it comes from, for better or worse... i.e. the original subject of this thread, satellite data service discontinuance and or disruption as hurricane season revs up. While it's quite applicable and needed to civilly debate politics or ideology on Stormtrack from time to time, keeping things aligned on a weather forum such as this can be a balance certainly in the charged political and atmospheric climates we all live within.

In the days of the paper issued newsletter by David Hoadley, circa 1977-1985 or so pre Tim Marshall, politics was often openly noted and discussed by a select few, some whom have passed on, but always kept at bay just enough for assorted editorials. I really enjoyed re-reading those original documents and discussions. Randy was a part of that era and I will note it here for historical reference without bias. I feel there is a needed blend here without topics such as this going "off the rails" as so easily can occur, nor is it unique to ST. CFDG, WX-CHASE, WX-TALK all had the same issues at times. I sincerely do enjoy civil debate, discourse and highly recommend not locking this discussion due to certain protocols set by the present ST administrators being crossed; although I do understand where that need to curb the conversation comes from having been "involved" on and off again with ST for decades here.

We can all agree to disagree, or disagree to ponder a topic, talk, spat, laugh at it and reply. Life goes on.

Thanks for the conversations. It's been rich!

All the best,

Blake


BLAKE WILLIAM NAFTEL

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[Boris Konon]

Just my .02 here on the back and forth political...

One thing I have found, anytime there is a cry foul about something (say, freedom of speech/expression) one side attacks or limits, you can easily find the same exact thing done or advocated by the other side. The only difference is that it concerns specific items/issues that are deemed important that side only and tows a party line.

So acting holier-than-thou b/c what is most important to *me* or *my* side and acting like this unequivocally proves that X or Y person in power is terrible or fumbling across-the board I find a selfish and vapid argument. Both sides and people in them do this en masse, which really gets us nowhere - endless bitter back and forth.

Rather than get bogged down on a small group of specific issues and focus on their negatives, how about looking at the big picture and the positives for a change? And looking at what happens net-net over a *gasp* longer-term, rather than taking snapshot of short periods or in the heat of the moment?

People wallow in the negative far too much, do not think in the abstract enough, and do not consider enough what they *don't* know concerning why this and that happens for whatever reason. I have found that once you take this into consideration and adopt this more humble and modest mindset, it clears the mind of drivel/distraction and makes you think of things in a less reactive and more practical and reasonable way.

A basic good start is to act w/ common sense and decency, be humane, and avoid toxic empathy.

EDIT: Let me add that I do agree that politics have infiltrated virtually everything these days, which is unfortunate. It is difficult to have a civil conversation b/c too many immediately insert politics into it, when that was not the intent of the conversation at all. Sometimes
you are just trying to share valuable and practical information, and it triggers people into a political downward spiral, and you are like,
"HUH?" This is not good b/c people just refrain from talking to others in fear of this, which is very bad from a societal standpoint. The lack of dialogue/communication can lead to very skewed and disparaging views of others or "the other side."

 

[Sean Ramsey]

Since I'm here and not on social media, at least for me the feverous toxicity that infiltrated everything has subsided for the most part (it's been amazing for the emotional well-being btw). I do believe we were at a point in time where after everyone basically cut each other off, and now hopefully people realize it is time to come back and talk to each other about things that don't have an easy solution. Sure, people usually fall on one side or the other, but at the end of the day that's basically where you are and telling everyone else about it does little to move the needle for anyone else. What's needed is constructive dialogue and maybe we're now at a point where things can be discussed without the anger/toxicity. If you can walk away from this screen after posting and reading posts from others and you feel about the same as you went in, then we are making progress.

At this point in recent history, the left and the right have both had the chance to lead and make their impressions on the country. At the moment, the pendulum has swung the way of conservatives, after a lengthy period where the direction was fairly liberal. As with all things political, voting matters the most and so here we are with our current leadership.

As for things getting political here, we've had a number of conversations over the last year wade into political waters and from what I can see our members have handled it quite nicely. I hope everyone's posts here are allowed to remain and discussion pertaining to the original post subject can continue, even if it leans one way or the other politically.

 

[SDBellisario]

As a long-time lurker/first-time poster, I enjoy the discourse as long as it is constructive and not hostile and hope that the thread and future discussions can continue. I am as keen about the weather as I am about politics and it seems like many others are as well.

 

[JamesCaruso]

STAFF NOTE: As the discussion seems to have gotten somewhat back on track, most participants seem comfortable with it, and some have explicitly expressed the notion that political perspectives are unavoidable and have asked the thread not to be closed, I have decided to leave all of the posts intact for now and not lock the thread. To clarify, there is no issue with political perspectives when the issue is clearly tied to policy. The issue is going off on tangents to make broad brush, abstract generalizations about one administration or another, implying that anyone that supports a particular administration or political philosophy is a bad person and should be “resisted”, flaming each other, etc Some posts here were beginning to move in that direction, hence my earlier warning, but we seem to be back in relatively friendly territory.

 

[Blake Naftel]

James:

Glad "the administration" decided not to "close" or "lock" this post. Well done. That is not sarcasm, rather, a direct statement to you and others on this forum. For people to have an open communications debate, you/we need to be open on the hard or "taboo" topics including politics that effect meteorology, "storm chasing" and the general appreciation of the sky. This is not a riff on you personally, James, or whomever else assists to freely try to control order on this forum in 2025. I can read how some aspects became irritating. It happens. ST is merely a small group of individuals being human, occasionally talking or disagreeing and yes, myself included, sometimes will initiate and get into heated discussions regardless of "protocol". This thread is a key example of why there are so very few participants on Stormtrack now than compared to previous decades. As noted on other threads, ST has also been fractured by "social" media and overall some people genuinely do not wish to get dragged into politics, myself included but hey, pot calling the kettle black. I really do enjoy that ST is still "a thing" and could care less about your warning, no offense, nor am I attempting to write an arrogant response there, yet per my rambles will likely come off as such in the written word. Opinions. It's part of the experience. So be it.

Stormtrack was about community, open dialogue and folks with mutual interests in severe weather observation at the onset in 1977. It still is to an extent and we can all certainly have civil debates. Yet when you slap the hands of people who actually wish to explain, or attempt to in certain moments, a perspective regardless if it leans into politics... people do and will leave, go on with their lives or simply do not participate. That's not the point of Stormtrack. It's a community conversation! That is a fact. I'm glad those who choose to openly participate regardless of opinions are actually "talking" on a message board again, even if this is 1999 technology.

Overall IMO, Stormtrack as a forum has become very bland over the years with occasional fantastic discussion points made by everyone who partakes now n' then. The forum is unfortunately male dominated, lopsided in that respect as was not the case 20 years ago and yet only recently per the past year as people seem to step out of the atmospheric post pandemic woodwork has it become interesting again. Maybe that is just me? Perhaps. This discussion and thread is a prime example as to why listservs, forums and public discussion, regardless of "sides" still exist.

The balance in our civil discussions can be found by open communication, not "one upping" or speaking from a pedestal, and allowing for the push and shove to evolve like the winds we all do enjoy to witness, regardless of it's in the digital ether.

Thank you for not "locking" or deleting this conversation!

All the best,

Blake



BLAKE WILLIAM NAFTEL

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[Dave C]

Dave, we all have opinions and that is fine. I sincerely mean what I write from time to time when I dip my toes in this forum, do mostly enjoy your and others' commentary and yet sometimes I could care less! Wow, differences of opinion on a web forum. New concept there. That's also called sarcasm, a concept that most people cannot grasp anymore. What goes around comes around, and the same goes for me and whatever I post. Yes, I plugged a "reel" and fully grasp that not everyone finds my brand of "humor" funny. In general and historically on listserv style forums such as this, people such as yourself and I at times take life and professional careers, opinions and viewpoints far to seriously. Get over it!

Yes! At present nearly everything is political in this country... including weather, meteorology, climate, storm chasing, finances, life, comedy and people in general. If you sir do not see that... you are quite disconnected to that blunt fact and I would tell that to your face directly if we were speaking in person. Everything happening at present globally, be it in meteorology or life in general is a broad culture shift and I will certainly stand up against individuals who kowtow to the likes of the present administration and individuals who support it.

By the way... America got itself into this mess. It can get itself out of it as well with people who are true leaders.

All the best,

Blake


BLAKE WILLIAM NAFTEL
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I don't agree everything is political at all. I have no hard feelings, was not offended, respect your take, and totally fine for us not to agree. I will briefly explain where I am coming from and why I responded with some contrary topical facts to your initial post. I have no intent of any further political debate, so we can then get back to the topic of the thread at the end of my post. Moderators feel free to delete if my response is seen as moving in the wrong direction.

Political division and framing things through that lens is in my opinion one of the worst wastes of human potential. There is WAY more depth to life than politics or getting wound up about things outside our control. Even if we feel we must act and are independent thinkers per topic, there is a right and wrong way to discourse on issues with others or participate in creating change. When I personally choose to participate in politics for an important issue, I often simply contact government directly because I see that as most effective. If I do get involved in discourse on an issue, I prefer reason, nuanced thinking, sticking to facts and complexities of issues, mutual intent to learn rather than only persuade, and above all common courtesy. Differing opinions are welcome and appreciated. Frankly I think everyone around here at ST is pretty decent, even if things get a little too political for my tastes sometimes.

I personally do not respond well to what I call a 'drive by' where someone dumps their opinion out with something I consider charged language, or links to something that is an opinion piece, etc. That to me is a often a one sided conversation and we get enough of that format on social media. It's hard to persuade or interest me in anything delivered that way. I often wish we could keep politics completely out of this forum format, but obviously discussing world events crosses into policy and nuance and some small graces must be given. I like James's wording above on avoiding "going off on tangents to make broad brush, abstract generalizations about one administration or another". Avoiding that stuff and I am generally fine to stay in a discussion without feeling it unproductive. I am not fan of most politicians and administrations, so it isn't about agreeing or disagreeing, I just like it to feel productive for everyone if we are having discourse.

Anyway back to this topic, I am still surprised so many are upset with this DMSP data loss in context of this administration or even removed from that framing, since this has been imminent for a long time. JPSS took over the ground stations for DMSP already, and DMSP sats have been exploding, shutting down, falling apart for years and what is left is well past design life. It is a miracle any of the DMSP sat data availability made it this far to me. For anyone upset about data loss on these particular sats, maybe it is more productive to direct that frustration to the crappy procurement efforts of the follow on programs. NOAA and Defense architectures are no longer joint after JPSS and neither party has launched enough microwave instruments to replace the full current sensor orbit frequency or resolution. Their technology path selections and program starts are way behind. I personally think hurricane forecasting and other uses will not be that hampered due to the wide variety of other methods data can be obtained.

 

[Blake Naftel]

I don't agree everything is political at all. I have no hard feelings, was not offended, respect your take, and totally fine for us not to agree. I will briefly explain where I am coming from and why I responded with some contrary topical facts to your initial post.

Agreed! I feel the same way nor does this need to continue to revolve around politics. All I was noting was that at present, in American and global society today, "politics" plays into discussion, regardless of side. I certainly admit that I can push boundaries that are not merely atmospheric here, but it's all part of the conversation, not to be a stick in the mud or mix up the original points of thread topics. Such is the life of a nerd.

Political division and framing things through that lens is in my opinion one of the worst wastes of human potential. There is WAY more depth to life than politics or getting wound up about things outside our control. Even if we feel we must act and are independent thinkers per topic, there is a right and wrong way to discourse on issues with others or participate in creating change. When I personally choose to participate in politics for an important issue, I often simply contact government directly because I see that as most effective. If I do get involved in discourse on an issue, I prefer reason, nuanced thinking, sticking to facts and complexities of issues, mutual intent to learn rather than only persuade, and above all common courtesy. Differing opinions are welcome and appreciated. Frankly I think everyone around here at ST is pretty decent, even if things get a little too political for my tastes sometimes.

I personally do not respond well to what I call a 'drive by' where someone dumps their opinion out with something I consider charged language, or links to something that is an opinion piece, etc.

Agreed. There are much better avenues both personally and professionally that we can place our energies towards, both in meteorology, sky observation and life in general, politics aside, even though we all must accept and deal with that aspect.

That to me is a often a one sided conversation and we get enough of that format on social media.

Will there ever be balance in or on "social" media? Was there ever? That's another topic for another time.

It's hard to persuade or interest me in anything delivered that way. I often wish we could keep politics completely out of this forum format, but obviously discussing world events crosses into policy and nuance and some small graces must be given. I like James's wording above on avoiding "going off on tangents to make broad brush, abstract generalizations about one administration or another". Avoiding that stuff and I am generally fine to stay in a discussion without feeling it unproductive. I am not fan of most politicians and administrations, so it isn't about agreeing or disagreeing, I just like it to feel productive for everyone if we are having discourse.

We can all have open conversations and opinions, that's why a forum such as this exists. Yet when only a select few are involved in a thread, forum or topic, from my perspective over the years and nor is that intended to read big headed, the go between just becomes bland. Somewhere on this or another thread I made mention of this aspect and why it detracts from people participating on ST. Again, another topic for another thread and yes, Dave, I completely understand and see your perspective here. I am not offended, I merely enjoy writing, response and taking it all in.

Anyway back to this topic, I am still surprised so many are upset with this DMSP data loss in context of this administration or even removed from that framing, since this has been imminent for a long time. JPSS took over the ground stations for DMSP already, and DMSP sats have been exploding, shutting down, falling apart for years and what is left is well past design life. It is a miracle any of the DMSP sat data availability made it this far to me. For anyone upset about data loss on these particular sats, maybe it is more productive to direct that frustration to the crappy procurement efforts of the follow on programs. NOAA and Defense architectures are no longer joint after JPSS and neither party has launched enough microwave instruments to replace the full current sensor orbit frequency or resolution. Their technology path selections and program starts are way behind. I personally think hurricane forecasting and other uses will not be that hampered due to the wide variety of other methods data can be obtained.

Bingo! Hurricane forecasts, weather data and so fourth will continue to endure despite headlines or fear mongering that transpires on "social" and "legacy" media. It's up to the public to take note of the information provided by reputable public or private sources and act accordingly. How do we improve this? Imagination, ingenuity and individuals who can actually envision a way to streamline a system that continues to fracture and indeed are "way behind" where systems could be. People in positions of momentary power also must be open to this, along with the extensive cost that comes with technological evolution of weather data that provides a beneficial public service to the public. I feel Ai will play a lead role in this over time and positively. Unfortunately it will come at the cost of job losses to John or Jane Q. Public at the onset, but perhaps in time, much like this thread, it will all level out!

Good discussion. Glad we could all get back on (storm) track. Lame pun intended.

Blake


BLAKE WILLIAM NAFTEL

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