Cloud 9 Tour Van Incident 5/4/22

I don’t have much experience with chasing, but I understand why chasers position themselves in the bear’s cage: it can provide better contrast for photography/ videography/ visual (tornado seen against the brighter sky background outside the storm) - but that would only apply during the day. What’s to be gained by being in the bear's cage at night? The contrast effect is not there, right? Am I missing something?


Defnitely agree with you about night time, not a lot of point in getting that close or in the possible or actual path. I find the best views for viewing and photography day or night are often from the southeast or south (not in path) when a tornado is not wrain wrapped, from where a tornado often is brightly illuminated (reflected sun by day and lightning by night). People venture into the cage when they cannot otherwise get any view at all due to rain or scud, or because they like the thrill of being in or near the path. People have started to view all hook slicing as safe and normal and really just downplay all the risks of positioning that close. From the cage you usually have huge precip on one side and a tornado on the other, which is a lot to manage if anything goes wrong. From the southeast or south parallel to the hook, you have none of those problems as long as you keep enough distance. Near particulary intense storms and in poor roads, data, visibility, etc. I have no idea why anyone would want to chase in essentially a small box (notch) and hope it agrees with their road options, etc. vs backing off a bit.

A lot of talk goes around about expecting this or that direction when chasing that close, and it is not incorrect. Realistically though, ANY direction shift at ANY time is possible. Look at Greensburg or Manitoba or a ton of other storms showing loops and reversals of very powerful tornadoes without warning. Not to mention satellites, debris, etc. The fact is, people get some experience and think they are in control, but nature is in control. Standing off far enough to allow human response time to the unexpected is the only sensible thing, especially when running a tour where completely inexperienced people are trusting they will be lead safely near these storms. Just because soemone signs a waiver doesn't mean they expect to get hit. I've seen the 'they knew the risk' defense and completely disagree. People see a waiver as standard business stuff. Very few of us actually expect after signing a waiver to get hit by a tornado, have a parachute fail, bungee cord break, etc.

What really perplexes me is how people are obsessed with the tornado only (counting them, only chasing days that have tornado potential, etc)) and they thrive on the competition of it all. What happened to seeing what you can safely and enjoying nature? There are a lot of beautiful things to see around storms even when you cannot see a tornado. It all really resembles the dopamine loop of social media attention; a mindless obsession where common sense is rejected for the addiction and the attention.

Tour groups are the one place I would expect rigid control and adult responsibility. It is sad to see business success put over safety. I know several chasers I talked to ended their chase this same day at dark when they realized the roads, data, and situation were all getting bad. How does a tour operator not realize that this is a good time to call it a day after decades? I sure hope there is some explanation other than bad decisions. It seems many veteran chasers all end up forgetting to fear the storm enough to make good choices. It reminds me, again, to step up my own safety thinking and not get complacent just because I have become used to being near dangerous storms.
 
People have started to view all hook slicing as safe and normal
....
I sure hope there is some explanation other than bad decisions

I agree, I was shocked at the number of chasers hook slicing through hurricane force wet RFD with no visibility, I had thought after el reno 2013 people would have realized the danger of hook slicing, but it seems not.

I also have a really hard time seeing how anything other than bad decisions would cause a tour van to be driving east on US-70 in that storm at that time
 
Defnitely agree with you about night time, not a lot of point in getting that close or in the possible or actual path. I find the best views for viewing and photography day or night are often from the southeast or south (not in path) when a tornado is not wrain wrapped, from where a tornado often is brightly illuminated (reflected sun by day and lightning by night). People venture into the cage when they cannot otherwise get any view at all due to rain or scud, or because they like the thrill of being in or near the path. People have started to view all hook slicing as safe and normal and really just downplay all the risks of positioning that close. From the cage you usually have huge precip on one side and a tornado on the other, which is a lot to manage if anything goes wrong. From the southeast or south parallel to the hook, you have none of those problems as long as you keep enough distance. Near particulary intense storms and in poor roads, data, visibility, etc. I have no idea why anyone would want to chase in essentially a small box (notch) and hope it agrees with their road options, etc. vs backing off a bit.

A lot of talk goes around about expecting this or that direction when chasing that close, and it is not incorrect. Realistically though, ANY direction shift at ANY time is possible. Look at Greensburg or Manitoba or a ton of other storms showing loops and reversals of very powerful tornadoes without warning. Not to mention satellites, debris, etc. The fact is, people get some experience and think they are in control, but nature is in control. Standing off far enough to allow human response time to the unexpected is the only sensible thing, especially when running a tour where completely inexperienced people are trusting they will be lead safely near these storms. Just because soemone signs a waiver doesn't mean they expect to get hit. I've seen the 'they knew the risk' defense and completely disagree. People see a waiver as standard business stuff. Very few of us actually expect after signing a waiver to get hit by a tornado, have a parachute fail, bungee cord break, etc.

What really perplexes me is how people are obsessed with the tornado only (counting them, only chasing days that have tornado potential, etc)) and they thrive on the competition of it all. What happened to seeing what you can safely and enjoying nature? There are a lot of beautiful things to see around storms even when you cannot see a tornado. It all really resembles the dopamine loop of social media attention; a mindless obsession where common sense is rejected for the addiction and the attention.

Tour groups are the one place I would expect rigid control and adult responsibility. It is sad to see business success put over safety. I know several chasers I talked to ended their chase this same day at dark when they realized the roads, data, and situation were all getting bad. How does a tour operator not realize that this is a good time to call it a day after decades? I sure hope there is some explanation other than bad decisions. It seems many veteran chasers all end up forgetting to fear the storm enough to make good choices. It reminds me, again, to step up my own safety thinking and not get complacent just because I have become used to being near dangerous storms.

This is a good point being on the south side. That is what I typically try for. I also like to get some of the structure as well. That is how this shot was taken. We were actually slightly behind the storm on this though. It was either this or get cored on roads farther north:

t4.jpg
 
My two cents.

If you choose to stay on a bad road track just to keep with the storm, you are not making the best intention to be safe.

Not all storms are chaseable. Sometimes you just have to let them go. If you feel the need to put your life in danger just to stay on a storm, it may be time for you to re-think your life choices.

I see this in many other driving scenarios (not related to storm chasing) - some driver who is clearly insufficiently skilled or too afraid to push forward snarls up traffic or causes an accident because of poor driving...when the alternate is for them to never get on the road in the first place (or...take public transportation or have someone else driving). You do not have a Constitutional right to drive on public roads! Driving is a privilege conferred on you by individual states. To maintain that privilege, you must always demonstrate that you know how to handle your machine when using the public roads. Otherwise, get off the road.

Furthermore, avoiding these scenarios is not a matter of "I'm going to plow as hard into the hook as I can and hope every other aspect of this scenario bails me out." It is not anyone else's (including Mother Nature's) job to bail you out of danger when you engage in risky behavior. The more important thing is avoiding getting into this situation in the first place. That's why you give the storm more room when the scenario includes:
-at night
-poor road network
-low-visibility/high-precipitation
-volatile/extreme environment

What this chase crew did was reckless and could have gotten people killed. And IIRC, this is not the first time that particular brand has been involved in dangerous circumstances. See the end of this video for example:
 
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We broke off our chase after Truscott/Crowley. There is no point to chasing in the dark IMO. I personally like seeing the structure with the Tor so also no need to "zero meter" for me (you are also not going to sell any footage with every chaser in the Plains on the same cell). Of course this is only my personal choice. My only regret yesterday was not being in the right spot to send out the drone. That screaming inflow would have ended that idea real quick.

Good on you! Great points, too. I haven't seen a single quality image or video from that tornado. So all these people risked their asses for what...no paydays as far as I am aware.
 
Jeff, I completely agree with you, I don’t think our opinions differ much… My post was perhaps poorly worded, I was just objectively speculating that this thought process could have been a factor in the incident. I know it sounds like I was empathizing with it, and I probably was, but more so just understanding that it is a temptation that exists when we weigh all the variables making chase decisions… I wrote that it is HARD to choose to give up on the storm, but I have done it lots of times… I‘m also not trying to say “I was talking about others, *I* would never do that,” because I know I have done it - but NOT when the risk was THAT high- i.e. HP, large violent tornado, impending darkness, chaser convergence (not to mention being a tour operator and responsible for many other lives). There is a continuum to the level of risk… Analogous to the way I might empathize in general with the temptation to get close to a tornado, or to exceed the speed limit, but would certainly not endorse those actions in an unsafe scenario. If you knew me, I think you would agree I am a relatively conservative chaser and have missed things (or failed to get closer even when I could do so) because of it.


A poor road network likely contributes to incidents like this... Even the best intentions to be safe, fail when there just aren't enough road options... When the choice is to use the one good road that allows us to stay with the storm despite the dangers, or pretty much give up on the storm by ending up hopelessly out of position, it is very hard to choose the latter...
This is where you and I differ in opinion...as do many others apparently. If you choose to stay on a bad road track just to keep with the storm, you are not making the best intention to be safe.

Not all storms are chaseable. Sometimes you just have to let them go. If you feel the need to put your life in danger just to stay on a storm, it may be time for you to re-think your life choices.

I see this in many other driving scenarios (not related to storm chasing) - some driver who is clearly insufficiently skilled or too afraid to push forward snarls up traffic or causes an accident because of poor driving...when the alternate is for them to never get on the road in the first place (or...take public transportation or have someone else driving). You do not have a Constitutional right to drive on public roads! Driving is a privilege conferred on you by individual states. To maintain that privilege, you must always demonstrate that you know how to handle your machine when using the public roads. Otherwise, get off the road.

Furthermore, avoiding these scenarios is not a matter of "I'm going to plow as hard into the hook as I can and hope every other aspect of this scenario bails me out." It is not anyone else's (including Mother Nature's) job to bail you out if you engage in risky behavior. The more important thing is avoiding getting into this situation in the first place. That's why you give the storm more room when you're talking about
-at night
-poor road network
-low-visibility/high-precipitation
-volatile/extreme environment

What this chase crew did was reckless and could have gotten people killed. And IIRC, this is not the first time that particular brand has been involved in dangerous circumstances. See the end of this video for example:
 
Traveling east on 70 it seems there
Would have been a visual right before dark looking south. The radar showed that tornado had changed to the north. Loss of service? Thought it would continue parallel with 70? Thought They were east ahead? We were just south of Vernon on 183 waiting.. then calling it off.
 
Traveling east on 70 it seems there
Would have been a visual right before dark looking south. The radar showed that tornado had changed to the north. Loss of service?

70 had heavy rain plus hail was there too so a view was highly unlikely especially with limited lightning. I stayed on 70 hoping as I slowly went east that the cell would eventually be north of me enough to see it. I was not taking the chance of getting into that cell too far and getting hit.

As far as loss of service I had that happen to me but with that loss and being at night it made more sense to hold back and wait.

Another thing to note is that this storm changed speed a few times during the day something that people needed to consider later at night too. If you THINK you are just ahead of of it you might not be that way long.
 
Just came across this summary of their encounter with the storm. Even if they weren’t in chase mode at the time it still seems incredibly risky to drive through the core of a tornadic supercell on your way to the hotel. Surely they knew what they could be getting themselves into, even without the radar updating. They could have waited 15-20 minutes or so to be sure the storm had passed Lockett and Vernon and this never would have happened.

 
Just came across this summary of their encounter with the storm. Even if they weren’t in chase mode at the time it still seems incredibly risky to drive through the core of a tornadic supercell on your way to the hotel. Surely they knew what they could be getting themselves into, even without the radar updating. They could have waited 15-20 minutes or so to be sure the storm had passed Lockett and Vernon and this never would have happened.


So they hook sliced while relying on radar and not checking the timestamp? This sounds like a terrible way to go back to your hotel
 
I like to take people out who have never been chasing before and the one thing I hear a lot is “I want to get into a tornado” or some variation of that. It doesn’t sound like anything like that happened with that tour group, but it makes me wonder if trying to impress others makes some people do things they normally wouldn’t do. Warren especially has talked about that fairly recent trend of people tempting fate trying to copy something they saw in a video. If they’re relatively inexperienced I could really see how they might feel overly confident about how things might go and think they’d be the man around town if they pulled off a sweet intercept of driving into a tornado.
I hope there is never a tour group operator that succumbs to peer pressure. Jeff had a great quote that only marginally has anything to do with what I was talking about. “Some tornadoes are just not chaseable” That’s a good one to remember when deciding whether to pull the pin on the day or not.
 
I appreciate his honesty about what happened in the report, but it was extremely poor judgement to take that route relative to the position of the storm, even if he did not know it had turned left. As others have pointed out, leftward turns are not that unusual, and even if that had not happened or happened to a lesser extent, he could very well have been going right into a serious hail core. I hope newer (and some older) chasers learn from this incident: do not do this kind of thing.
 
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