Bow Echos and Tornadoes vs Forum Trolls

[Jim Saueressig]

After deleting some nasty comments from my flickr photos earlier regarding the 5/15 pics I have a couple of questions for you more experienced guys.

I was called an idiot for even thinking a hook in a squall line / bow echo could produce a tornado and that only an idiot would even focus on such a feature. So my first question to you is what is your experience regarding a possible catch from such a feature?

Myself I have often noticed that more intense damage and even suspicious damage has often occurred in the path of such an hooked echo on a squall line. So besides often being picturesque I figured it would be something to focus on when all you are presented with is a squall line.

Secondly me and my mother were both insulted for my posting that there was a possible tube in my picture in the reports thread. I was hesitant to say it was for sure even though the rapid circular ground rotation into the feature and then seeing what appeared to be a faint tube in the photo pointed to it being that. So I decided to use the tried and true "High Contrast Tornado Detector" that so many of you have used and now I am feeling more confident.

I decided to throw them both the original untouched (other than a resize) and the HCTD version up here for your opinion. Remember I was shooting at 10mm so it was much closer than it appears but that also kills detail. Any other lens would have probably shown much more local detail. You can see the dirt being pulled off of the road at 1.25 power poles away toward the feature and not spit right at me out of the West like the rest of the squall line would have been doing. At this point it is unlikely to be more than a half of a mile away. You can also see that on the north side the debris is being wrapped back into the feature.

Original:

High Contrast:

So, can I salvage me and my mothers name here?

And more seriously what has been your experience with tornadoes on or in a squall line?

 

[Jay McCoy]

You can definitely get a tornado out of a squall line. especially in areas of a broken line or at the end of the line. The all famous "tail end Charlie". In fact in the east and SE parts of the country many of the tornados ceom from embedded supercells in a squall line or broken lines in the squall line.

From the NWS
Transient tornadoes also can occur in squall lines, especially in association with bow echoes. These tornadoes, however, tend to be weaker and shorter-lived on average than those associated with supercell thunderstorms.

Also a thread here on ST.
http://www.stormtrack.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-15279.html

 

[Mike Johnston]

I thought you had a tornado in that picture the first time I viewed your report. If anything, your words were more on the side of understatement.

 

[Jim Saueressig]

I thought you had a tornado in that picture the first time I viewed your report. If anything, your words were more on the side of understatement.

I will do that generally and especially on a funnel because unless it is a classic funnel I am just not inclined to call it one. I have seen many pictures of funnels even on here that I would have not ever called a funnel, Same with some tornadoes reports, I have seen some call a slight lowering with a bit of a dust whirl on the ground a tornado and I suppose by definition they are but I like to see a lot more actual tube to make that decision.

I guess it's because I am into storm chasing because of the whole photographic nature of the storm and not just the tornado itself. I suppose if I were in it for the tornado itself aspect then I would see things differently. I am however switching my focus to try to learn more about the tornado only aspect though because some of the wide angle close up shots of tubes like McGowan has a few of recently really look nice.

The worst problem in trying to shoot structure that close to a squall is its speed. After I let that hit me to get those pictures I had to run 28 miles at speeds that would get me attacked by the chaser police if I posted them to get back in front of it for another try at pictures.

I did catch another updraft lowering coming over Burlington that was associated with a hook echo under a bowing out of the storm but it was weakening considerably in comparison with the first. I did hear on the scanner that there were a few calls from the public regarding its motion and suspicious lowerings but at that point though it had mild rotation from my view point but they were probably just seeing the precipitation mixings.



Either way it seems like something to focus on when you are faced with a squall in its early stages if you already have tons of lightning shots.

 

[Chris Bowman]

Jim

You definitely can get tornadoes from QLCS storms. And some of the recent cases of QLCS tors have been rated EF-3. The images from below are of a mesovortex from ICT last year. While no tor was confirmed with this particular mesovortex there were reports of high winds and damage upstream near Douglass or Rose Hill from this circulation. If I recall one of the tower cams in ICT recorded a lowering and/or wall cloud. Though it would be looking from a bad angle so I don't know. I don't know about anyone else but I would hard pressed to not go with a tor warning on signature below. But that's just my opinion.

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/ict/scripts/viewstory.php?STORY_NUMBER=2008060617

 

[Chad Cowan]

Where and when were those shots taken Jim? That looks like something I saw near Lyndon after I dropped south from the Ottawa storm.

 

[Kyle Soldani]

It's absolutely possible. When I saw you're first pictures there, I had no doubt I was seeing a lowering, if not tornado. The high contrast just proves it further..

Where and when were those shots taken Jim? That looks like something I saw near Lyndon after I dropped south from the Ottawa storm.

Same. Looks similar to the wall cloud we were on for the 15th. Originally I went up to Silver Lake just to intercept a severe warned storm, checked GR and saw a slight hook on the extreme south end of that frontal squall (since there were 2 that formed friday).

Anyway, we hightailed it down to Lyndon, certainly had rotation in the end of that squall and according to other chasers, a slight lowering before we got there.

 

[Jim Saueressig]

Where and when were those shots taken Jim? That looks like something I saw near Lyndon after I dropped south from the Ottawa storm.

That was taken on RD 270 1/4 mile West of Rd 270 and K99. 5:35 PM

A quick log with more pics and times is Here.

I noticed that in it's path about 10 minutes later that near Reading there was reports of 8" limbs down. I know the wind was intense because as I was hauling across the backside of Melvern lake on the dike that the wind pushed all of the normally West leaning poles so far East that there was probably a foot of slack in all of the tie guy wires normally holding them tight from falling West and the power lines themselves were bowed out nearly horizontal to the East.

 

[Jason Blum]

A couple of weeks ago, we got eighteen tornadoes out of a derecho squall line which passed through this region. Granted, that was an unusual event, but it proves a point. A couple of months before that we had a much weaker squall line which produced a brief tornado. That one tore a woman's roof off, and caused a path of minor but definitely tornadic damage through the city.

It happens all the time. Generally speaking, they just aren't as predictable tornadoes produced by more discrete storms, and tend to be weaker and more brief. Due to this they are often not warned, and tend to not attract as many chasers.

On a side-note, I had to roll my eyes several times recently at all the grief that the local TV meteorologists and emergency managers caught for not better alerting the public as to the existence of some of these recent tornadoes. Never mind the fact that they were ten seconds long, and embedded in squall lines... they caught flak for not activating the sirens. (I'm not speaking of the derecho, because they did in fact activate them during that)

Jim: I'm new to chasing, but what I've already discovered is that YouTube and the internet has essentially raised the bar of expectations; especially from amateurs. They are used to seeing INCREDIBLE videos from inside the tornadoes, or highly photogenic condensation funnels with perfect contrast. When you show them anything less, they roll their eyes and view it with skepticism or disdain. Show them an EF2, and they'll say, "Is that all you've got? I've seen way more powerful tornadoes!". Show them a video taken from a half-mile away, and they'll say, "Big deal! I've seen videos from inside tornadoes!" Many of them (especially the younger ones) just have no respect for nature or for the uniqueness of each storm They just want bigger and badder, and anything less bores them.
It's sad, but true.

 

[Adam Lucio]

Yes, definitely possible. The people who left you those comments on FLickr are the real idiots and if any of them are members of ST and consider themselves chasers they should resign from the forums, they are a disgrace and should actually read up and understand storms.

Al Peitrycha gave a fascinating presentation of these types of tornadoes at the advanced spotter training session I went to In March...something that these wanna-be know it all chaser types would never attend.

While I cannot add any sort of confirmation going off the pictures alone, I can say what everyone else said and that it is very possible to get a tornado from these types of storms.

 

[Jim Saueressig]

I had to roll my eyes several times recently at all the grief that the local TV meteorologists and emergency managers caught for not better alerting the public as to the existence of some of these recent tornadoes. Never mind the fact that they were ten seconds long, and embedded in squall lines... they caught flak for not activating the sirens. (I'm not speaking of the derecho, because they did in fact activate them during that)

They are very brief for sure, just like in this case the NWS drafted up the tornado warning and by the time they would release it the area of interest lost the rotation and was swallowed up by the squall line.

In any case I got a decent little structure shot and that is what I was focusing on at that point. I am more of a structure junkie than most I suppose but I noticed many others got some good structure shots from this set of storms as well. I guess in the end not many are going to travel very far for structure shots and they don't pay the bills but I like em'

Yes, definitely possible. The people who left you those comments on FLickr are the real idiots and if any of them are members of ST and consider themselves chasers they should resign from the forums, they are a disgrace and should actually read up and understand storms.

Adam I think it is just a few trolls left over from the OWS episodes. I wasn't really insulted as much as I was amused. I am pretty sure now that it was a very brief touchdown but short of a damage search it would be tough to prove. I will be focusing on those points more in the future when that's all I have to shoot that day because even if a tornado would only be very brief the structure on them is often quite nice and more focused at that point.

 

[Paul Hadfield]

Yes, definitely possible. The people who left you those comments on FLickr are the real idiots and if any of them are members of ST and consider themselves chasers they should resign from the forums, they are a disgrace and should actually read up and understand storms.

Al Peitrycha gave a fascinating presentation of these types of tornadoes at the advanced spotter training session I went to In March...something that these wanna-be know it all chaser types would never attend.

While I cannot add any sort of confirmation going off the pictures alone, I can say what everyone else said and that it is very possible to get a tornado from these types of storms.

What is it with people that if it's isn't some textbook supercell structure that it's not capable of producing a tornado? The key with squall lines is knowing how to separate the wheat from the chaff or in other words, isolating the individual dynamics from the surrounding activity. Spend enough time with squall lines as is the case for places E of the Plains and you understand. We had this very thing just happen 05/13 with the infamous MO storms that lined out and dove SE yet still produced confirmed touchdowns in the region. You called it Jim, forget those comments.

 

[Benjamin Rock]

The same thing happened too a buddy of mine on youtube. some idiot thought he knew it all and was later proven wrong.You can definitely get a tornado or funnel out of a squall or segmented bow. A lot of times, these are know as bookend tornadoes as they form at the edge of the bow or squall segment. they may be weaker and shorter lived than t-storm tornadoes, but they can be just as dangerous and usually have strong straight line winds associated with them. The people on Flickr need to mind their own and take some meteorology classes before opening their mouths.

 

[Dann Cianca]

It's not unheard of to get embedded supercellular structure in a squall line. I saw it in New Mexico back in February.

 

[Darrin Rasberry]

Are these cases of embedded HP supercells? Looking at the example in the picture above kinda confirms this suspicion for me.

The first thought I had when I read this thread was of the Boy Scout tornadoes in early June last year. It was a big line of linked supercells just like this, spanning all across Iowa at one point.