Advice for eastern chaser heading to the plains for the first time

[Joey Ketcham]

Alot of western KS roads get slimy with a little moisture. I distinctly remember sliding backwards in 4wd down a hill pheasant hunting one day. And that was with aggressive mud tires. If I went into a ditch only a 4x4 tractor was getting me out. I know turkey hunting forums have countless tales of walking out on foot to a hard packed road.

The road network in Kansas is great, even back roads, but yeah some roads can be iffy and probably best to avoid them. Western Kansas seems to have the more iffy roads, Southeast and Central Kansas tends to have great back roads; gravel, not mud/clay and easy to travel down.

 

[Matt Zumbrunn]

The road network in Kansas is great, even back roads, but yeah some roads can be iffy and probably best to avoid them. Western Kansas seems to have the more iffy roads, Southeast and Central Kansas tends to have great back roads; gravel, not mud/clay and easy to travel down.

That brings me to another point. 4 ply passenger tires get eaten for breakfast by the gravel on the roads at least in this part of KS.

 

[Todd Lemery]

Hell Matt, if you’re on a gravel road chasing in the Southern plains, just be happy and don’t worry about the tires. If you’ve got good tread, worry about something else!

 

[Brian OConnell]

The road network in Kansas is great, even back roads, but yeah some roads can be iffy and probably best to avoid them. Western Kansas seems to have the more iffy roads, Southeast and Central Kansas tends to have great back roads; gravel, not mud/clay and easy to travel down.

I'll be mostly in east CO, southeast WY, west NE, and maybe far west KS, given where I know people I can stay with

 

[Brian OConnell]

That brings me to another point. 4 ply passenger tires get eaten for breakfast by the gravel on the roads at least in this part of KS.

What kind of tire do you recommend for plains chasing? I had thought of tire choice as important for traction in mud, rain, and snow, but not that the roads would tear up tires!

 

[Dave C]

Hail: can be large out of the smallest squall line close to the front range. I've seen golf balls in a small squall line do massive damage in the metro. Out on the planes the same holds true. Non supercell clusters or lines can have very large wind blown hail. As far as avoiding hail - don't go in anywehre you cannot see through the precipitation. No vault, not under the shelf cloud, not into heavy precip, etc. On the backside of an LP, be very watchful for hail off the back of the updraft caught in RFD or just blown away from the storm. I've seen quite a few LP updrafts kick out large hail into clear air without warning.

Cops: are a non issue almost anywhere if you drive correctly, respect that you are passing through a place others live, etc. I drive through plains towns as if it was my own and realize some people may be uninformed and scared in the presence of sirens or storms and it is NOT my right to speed around or lose patience with them. They are there first and I am a guest. Very infrequently cops will profile out of state plates in certain areas; if you are respectful they don't do anything but ask questions and let you go. Never ever speed in a town limits, that is how they wait and make money in many towns. On highways, keep it reasonable - 7 to 9 over should be the max. I have seen days with literally dozens of cops in KS out on the highways and they pull over the people doing high speeds (9+ MPH over typically). I've heard of people getting huuuuge tickets for their lead foot in most states. Perhaps most important and separate from cops somewhat - stop at every stop sign; even in middle of nowhere out here. Lets not have another incident like the two Weather Channel chasers killing another chaser.

Roads: Wherever there is a grid network, chasing is great. This starts at the Kansas line east. Wyoming, Western NE, and CO all have some gridded areas, and some very rural areas where there is only one road that everyone will be on. As some mentioned, clay is prevalent in NE and CO. I use a 3 hour rainfall product when chasing and reliably avoid mud no matter the state. Nothing but the craziest mud crawler purpose built truck or tractor can stay on the road after it gets an inch of water in 30 minutes. I would suggest studying the road density and learning the numbering system in each state. For example, Colorado has a lot of 2 - 5 mile grids where there are grids at all and numbered county roads are usually but not always better maintained than lettered or double lettered roads in most counties. Usually the longer straight roads that look like feeders connect to them are better maintained. In parts of KS, the road grid is 1-2 miles, and there are more paved roads in the grid every 5-10 miles. In TX, there are farm to market roads, etc. It really pays to learn each states naming systems and study a chase area by map satellite view before heading out, and in the field if you have enough data.

Tires: A good A/T tire with road manners is a nice compromise. I use an hybrid A/T H/T tire and have had no issues from heavy rain to light mud to rough gravel or dirt. All wheel drive is a huge plus in all conditions.

Winds: Sideways baseball hail is a thing. Avoid RFD/FFD if you are not ready for it. Stay out of the gust front of large squall lines / bow echos or outlfow dominant beasts dying. Straight line winds can tip over semis, create a dust hazard that is REALLY dangerous. I've seen straight line winds take out a gas station window before. If a squall line is going 80MPH and has high winds and heavy precip, find shelter rather than trying to stay ahead of it in most cases (this is frequent in places like Kansas). If you just keep aware of the parts of the storm where winds can be high, and keep a healthy distance, you shouldn't have any problems. Note: this year and maybe next - dust across whole states is a major hazard.

Landspouts: Colorado plains near the front range, and certain other terrain in neighboring states, has orographic lift and convergence zones that enhance cyclogenisis and landspouts can happen easily (Denver Convergence Vorticy Zone is the name of the Colorado area). Landspouts as you know can come from any part of the storm including the front or back, etc. They seem to most often happen from boundary interactions, mergers and splits of storms or clusters. While not associated with a meso usually, they are associate with updrafts, so a radar product like echo tops may be helpful. On days with enhanced vorticity, just being aware there could be landspouts is often enough to keep safe unless you regularly drive under all parts of storms without looking.

Because of hail, chaser conergence, and other reasons, I rarely chase a tornadic supercell in path of a tornado or wall cloud for very long. The view is actually not as good as chasing to the SE or S or SW of the hook (better light on wall clouds and tornadoes, can see RFD cuts and structure, etc). Being in path I also find to be the most complex position for safety and affords little time to relax.

 

[Brian OConnell]

Nothing but the craziest mud crawler purpose built truck or tractor can stay on the road after it gets an inch of water in 30 minutes.

I remember after the fact analysis of the 2013 El reno tornado by Skip Talbot saying that the chaser deaths resulted from inappropriate escape rout choice, that the chasers went south or east across the path or the tornado when they should have gone north, in a "reverse core punch" becasue hail is less dangerous than a tornado, but from what I'm hearing reverse core punching is not a viable escape route on unpaved roads

All wheel drive is a huge plus in all conditions.

This is one thing I was wondering, I would never buy a 2WD vehicle because it wouldn't get up the hill to my house in the winter, but I was wondering if AWD is enough or if 4WD is needed (thinking about a subaru, and I hear they have very good "symetrical AWD")

Winds: Sideways baseball hail is a thing. Avoid RFD/FFD if you are not ready for it.

Who is ready for that?

If a squall line is going 80MPH and has high winds and heavy precip, find shelter rather than trying to stay ahead of it in most cases (this is frequent in places like Kansas).

2 rules I use for eastern chasing are never drive in a squall line and never outrun a squall line, as trying to do the latter will lead to doing the former, in squall lines here I try to stop someplace open with nothing upwind of me that can hit me and if there is a hail risk the car pointed into the wind, is this good for plains chasing or are you suggesting that I leave the car and go in a building?

Because of hail, chaser conergence, and other reasons, I rarely chase a tornadic supercell in path of a tornado or wall cloud for very long. The view is actually not as good as chasing to the SE or S or SW of the hook (better light on wall clouds and tornadoes, can see RFD cuts and structure, etc). Being in path I also find to be the most complex position for safety and affords little time to relax.

This makes a lot of sense to me, The only reasons I can see for being in the path are crossing the path way ahead of the meso, or if you are a scientist placing probes, other wise it seems like a pointless risk

Thanks for such thorough answer!

 

[Dave C]

I remember after the fact analysis of the 2013 El reno tornado by Skip Talbot saying that the chaser deaths resulted from inappropriate escape rout choice, that the chasers went south or east across the path or the tornado when they should have gone north, in a "reverse core punch" becasue hail is less dangerous than a tornado, but from what I'm hearing reverse core punching is not a viable escape route on unpaved roads

This is one thing I was wondering, I would never buy a 2WD vehicle because it wouldn't get up the hill to my house in the winter, but I was wondering if AWD is enough or if 4WD is needed (thinking about a subaru, and I hear they have very good "symetrical AWD")

Who is ready for that?

2 rules I use for eastern chasing are never drive in a squall line and never outrun a squall line, as trying to do the latter will lead to doing the former, in squall lines here I try to stop someplace open with nothing upwind of me that can hit me and if there is a hail risk the car pointed into the wind, is this good for plains chasing or are you suggesting that I leave the car and go in a building?

This makes a lot of sense to me, The only reasons I can see for being in the path are crossing the path way ahead of the meso, or if you are a scientist placing probes, other wise it seems like a pointless risk

Thanks for such thorough answer!

I think north or into a core on dirt is still valid escape if there is no better option (dirt in all directions and all wet, or paved north, or another route is definitely in path of a tornado that is close by). It would absolutely be better to be cored than trying to outrun a tornado if you can get out of the path with certainty, even if you got stuck but made it out of major danger. Traction must be factored into escape routes of course. The three hour rain product some radar apps have is invaluable; I can usually tell when a road will be dry, wet, or nightmare with pretty decent accuracy, if it is not obvious from having a huge core go over the road. Another factor on escape routes out on the plains, which maybe you have encountered out east as well, is random closed roads with no warning. This has happened to me three times while using my escape route before (I very rarely need to use one since I don't usually chase that close). In one case I was cored and learned to stay back further from volatile situations, and the others were closer escapes from hail and a not yet producing tornadic hook.

AWD has worked great for me for 10 years of chasing, including sliding like a boat through Nebraska clay as I chased a tornado from a safe distance behind. I am sure in certain scenarios true 4WD is better, but once the roads are a certain level of bad, only monstrous mud tires and torque are getting anywhere fast. A lot of the modern AWD are incredible at traction control (Honda, Subaru, etc) by independent electronic adjustment to torque on each wheel, including mud and sand modes that behave more like 4WD. 4WD usually comes with less fuel efficient vehicles, so I am one for the slight less traction in extreme scenarios in exchange for comfort and fuel economy and great on pavement manners. Subaru of just about any model would be a great choice as would a lot of the modern major reliable brands.

For finding shelter, I meant for your car with you in it unless you are about to get hit by truly massive hail or tornado. While some may not care, I don't like hail damage or windshield loss, so I will find shelter even from medium hail under a car wash or gas station overhang, or just stay out of the situation in the first place. I imagine squall lines move at similar speeds everywhere, but it seems most of the extremely fast ones I have had to move to shelter for were in KS or NE, which often form behind you if you chase a leading supercell. I think your existing rules about avoiding squall lines are very smart.

If you are aware of a gust front or RFD, it is not surprising and can usually be dealt with, not without sometimes a hail, dust, or other risk. So in the aspect of expecting it, you can be 'ready'.

 

[Brian OConnell]

I think north or into a core on dirt is still valid escape if there is no better option (dirt in all directions and all wet, or paved north, or another route is definitely in path of a tornado that is close by). It would absolutely be better to be cored than trying to outrun a tornado if you can get out of the path with certainty, even if you got stuck but made it out of major danger. Traction must be factored into escape routes of course. The three hour rain product some radar apps have is invaluable; I can usually tell when a road will be dry, wet, or nightmare with pretty decent accuracy, if it is not obvious from having a huge core go over the road. Another factor on escape routes out on the plains, which maybe you have encountered out east as well, is random closed roads with no warning. This has happened to me three times while using my escape route before (I very rarely need to use one since I don't usually chase that close). In one case I was cored and learned to stay back further from volatile situations, and the others were closer escapes from hail and a not yet producing tornadic hook.

AWD has worked great for me for 10 years of chasing, including sliding like a boat through Nebraska clay as I chased a tornado from a safe distance behind. I am sure in certain scenarios true 4WD is better, but once the roads are a certain level of bad, only monstrous mud tires and torque are getting anywhere fast. A lot of the modern AWD are incredible at traction control (Honda, Subaru, etc) by independent electronic adjustment to torque on each wheel, including mud and sand modes that behave more like 4WD. 4WD usually comes with less fuel efficient vehicles, so I am one for the slight less traction in extreme scenarios in exchange for comfort and fuel economy and great on pavement manners. Subaru of just about any model would be a great choice as would a lot of the modern major reliable brands.

For finding shelter, I meant for your car with you in it unless you are about to get hit by truly massive hail or tornado. While some may not care, I don't like hail damage or windshield loss, so I will find shelter even from medium hail under a car wash or gas station overhang, or just stay out of the situation in the first place. I imagine squall lines move at similar speeds everywhere, but it seems most of the extremely fast ones I have had to move to shelter for were in KS or NE, which often form behind you if you chase a leading supercell. I think your existing rules about avoiding squall lines are very smart.

If you are aware of a gust front or RFD, it is not surprising and can usually be dealt with, not without sometimes a hail, dust, or other risk. So in the aspect of expecting it, you can be 'ready'.

My concern about north escape routs were more about getting stuck as the tornado occludes and turns north

I'm planning to build one of those deployable hail gaurds that can cover most windows, so I am not too concerned about smaller hail, and I personally would be more worried about the wind effects on whatever I am sheltering under

Squall lines here move 45-60 mph, and the roads are 40-55 mph roads that are never straight, so maintaining even 40 mph in a single direction is extremely difficult

 

[Mike Smith]

My concern about north escape routs were more about getting stuck as the tornado occludes and turns north

While the people who post here are enthusiastic about storm chasing and the many contributions it has made to weather science (with, perhaps, more on the way, see: Meteorologists: Tornado "Tipping Vorticity" ), I'm beginning to wonder if you really wish to chase at this time?

If not, that's fine! Wait until a time when you feel comfortable or be an "armchair chaser." Don't feel pressured.

Regardless, we are happy you are posting here and wish you the best.

 

[Brian OConnell]

While the people who post here are enthusiastic about storm chasing and the many contributions it has made to weather science (with, perhaps, more on the way, see: Meteorologists: Tornado "Tipping Vorticity" ), I'm beginning to wonder if you really wish to chase at this time?

If not, that's fine! Wait until a time when you feel comfortable or be an "armchair chaser." Don't feel pressured.

Regardless, we are happy you are posting here and wish you the best.

If I said something that made you think I don't know what I am doing, you should absolutely let me know, I'm not going to take offense at any good faith advice, but I'm not sure why my comment about north escape routs made you think I am unprepared, and if there was something I got wrong I would like to know what it was

I've been chasing for 6 years and studying storm structure and advanced skywarn manuals for 6 years before that. Around here I am confident in my ability to closely observe everything from single cell to supercell storms while staying out of the danger zones, no one pressured me into chasing or into any chase trips, I got into it all myself, and came up with the idea for the plains trip, the reason I am asking so many questions is because I know there are meaningful differences in NY vs CO chasing and don't want any surprises on the plains, it's not like I am new to chasing, just new to the plains

 

[Mike Smith]

That said, if I said something that made you think I don't know what I am doing, you should absolutely let me know, I'm not going to take offense at any good faith advice, but I'm not sure why my comment about north escape routs made you think I am unprepared, and if there was something I got wrong I would like to know what

Brian, I was not focusing on the escape route comment especially but on the totality of your comments about roads, law enforcement, etc., etc. While I did not know you had chased in NY before, I was puzzled as I knew you were from the East and visibility and roads are much better here (Kanas specifically, and the Great Plains in general) here than in NY. My intent was solely to be helpful.

I do note you keep focusing on Colorado, which is fine. Please be aware that, in general, roads throughout Kansas are better than eastern Colorado.

If you have specific questions about Kansas and wish to contact me personally, you may do so at: [email protected] .

Good luck with your chases!!

 

[Brian OConnell]

Brian, I was not focusing on the escape route comment especially but on the totality of your comments about roads, law enforcement, etc., etc. While I did not know you had chased in NY before, I was puzzled as I knew you were from the East and visibility and roads are much better here (Kanas specifically, and the Great Plains in general) here than in NY. My intent was solely to be helpful.

I do note you keep focusing on Colorado, which is fine. Please be aware that, in general, roads throughout Kansas are better than eastern Colorado.

If you have specific questions about Kansas and wish to contact me personally, you may do so at: [email protected] .

Good luck with your chases!!

No worries, I know you are being helpful, I just want to know why you think I am unprepared, so that I can either prepare myself, avoid whatever I am unprepared to do, or correct anything that I might have said to falsely imply that I am unprepared, you should not fear that I am taking offense in any way, I'm here for advice

While visibility, terrain, and road orgainization on the plains is excellent, NY roads (at least in the mohawk valley) are almost always paved, even the little back roads, hence my questions about Colorado dirt roads

I'm not sure how my comments about law enforcement made you think I am unprepared to chase? Other than asking here, I'm not sure how I would know how law enforcement acts in jurisdictions i've never been to

My focus is on CO because for logistical reasons most of my chasing will be in CO and some of WY, but I would love to chase in KS if I get the chance

 

[Mike Smith]

No worries, I know you are being helpful, I just want to know why you think I am unprepared, so that I can either prepare myself, avoid whatever I am unprepared to do, or correct anything that I might have said to falsely imply that I am unprepared, you should not fear that I am taking offense in any way, I'm here for advice

Perhaps I used the wrong word: instead of saying "unprepared," I was getting the impression of "reluctance." Having had this exchange, I feel you are go to go.

 

[Brian OConnell]

Perhaps I used the wrong word: instead of saying "unprepared," I was getting the impression of "reluctance." Having had this exchange, I feel you are go to go.

Part of the reason for all my road questions is because I happen to be car shopping at the time (actually did a test drive just the other day) and I plan on doing more plains chasing going forward, so ability to handle the plains road grids is something I am looking for in a vehical