Advice for eastern chaser heading to the plains for the first time

[Brian OConnell]

I've been chasing storms for years in the Mohawk valley of NY state (the best the terrain gets is like east OK) but I am going to spend late spring/early summer 2023 visiting relatives in Colorado and chasing storms out there, so I was wondering what advice plains chasers have for someone familiar with severe storms and chasing but new to the area (i'll be based near Greeley)

An incomplete list of things I wonder about:

Hail: Where I am damaging hail can be avoided simply by staying out of the mesocyclone, inflow notch, and heavy rain areas in supercells, and the largest hail I have ever seen was quarter size, which was in the core of a supercell that passed over my house, but I have read that plains supercells can have hail where there is not heavy rain, so I am curious how you know where this is. Also, can nonsupercell storms have hail large enough to damage a car? Here you can be right in the core of almost any nonsupercell storm without fear of hail (falling trees are another story)

Road conditions: Years ago I was in the same part of CO and tried to chase a little non-severe storm, but could not as the car (2011 crv) shook violently whenever I hit 9 mph on the washboard dirt and gravel that composed the road grid, this shocked me as I can do 35 just fine on dirt roads around here, my car is old and needs replacing anyway, so what kind of vehicle is good for plains chasing?

Cops: Does chasing storms in Kansas require being willing to risk arrest? I hear stories of Kansas cops targeting chasers but I do not know to what extent these are the isolated bad cop stories you can find anywhere and to what extent crossing over the Kansas line is a risk if you can't take a chance on ending up in jail. Also where I live no one follows the speed limit exactly, they all add 5-8 MPH to any 40 or greater speed limit and (correctly)assume they won't be ticketed (even my driving instructor told me I am unlikely to be stopped if I am going 7 over or less), but I have heard this is not true everywhere, especially western states with higher speed limits? (I do not intend to drive dangerously but I have gotten used to doing 59 in 55s and 70 is 65s since everyone else is doing that or worse)

Wind: Where i am the biggest storm-related hazard is by far outflow/downbursts due to failing trees, I don't intend to be as careful with wind in places where there are no trees or powerlines around, but I want to make sure I don't get myself into trouble with extreme winds, as I have not encountered winds over 48 mph since I was 7 years old

Landspouts: Where I live tornadoes come almost entirely from supercell mesocyclones or squall line mesovorticies, are there additional tornado danger zones in Colorado storms?

And any other advice you might have on plains chasing

 

[Mike Smith]

I live in Kansas: Those stories are a decade old. Unless you violate the law, you will be fine!

Kansas also has the best road network for chasing. .

 

[John Farley]

Regarding the first two questions, yes, plains storms can have hail where no precipitation is visible. However, most of the time if you don't get too close to the mesocyclone and avoid the vault area (between the mesocyclone and the visible precipitation), you will be OK. Although if the storm is really intense, you might want to stay a little farther away, as these storms can fling hail out a little farther than you may be used to. Regarding the second question, unpaved roads in Colorado are often very poor roads, and with the high clay content in the soil in parts of the eastern Colorado plains, these roads can become nearly undrivable when they are wet. I have had a couple unpleasant experiences, and generally avoid unpaved roads in eastern CO and nearly parts of KS and OK if the roads are wet or likely to become so while I am on them.

 

[Brian OConnell]

if the storm is really intense, you might want to stay a little farther away, as these storms can fling hail out a little farther than you may be used to.

What I am used to is no hail at all in supercells, I have never seen so much as a single pea size hailstone while chasing a supercell, I have seen hail in 2 supercells that passed directly over my house before I was old enough to drive, but both cases were positions I would never put myself in while chasing (one was directly under the meso of a little LP, the other in the middle of the FFD of an HP) The only chases I have encountered hail have been sub-severe hail in squall lines

I'm not trying to imply supercells here have no hail, a friend of a friend was injured by grapefruit hail in a freakishly intense (for ny) supercell near me, but I always avoid the vault, downdrafts, and being directly under the meso for reasons other than hail, and this has always kept me out of any hail

Regarding the second question, unpaved roads in Colorado are often very poor roads, and with the high clay content in the soil in parts of the eastern Colorado plains, these roads can become nearly undrivable when they are wet.

Thanks for the warning! This brings up another question, how do people who live there deal with this? I can't imagine not going to work or school every time it rains

 

[Mike Smith]

"Thanks for the warning! This brings up another question, how do people who live there deal with this? I can't imagine not going to work or school every time it rains."

While the roads in rural Kansas are quite a bit better than Colorado's, even here we have "mud routes." School starts at 10am and the farmers usually have 4-wheel drive vehicles or use their (enclosed) tractors. They take their children to where the mud route comes closest to their homes. This almost exclusively affects farmers.

 

[Rick Schmidt]

During the May 25, 2016 EF-4 wedge that threaded the needle between Abilene, Solomon, and Chapman, myself and about 10 other chaser vehicles were subjected to unwarranted anger and orders to turn around and leave the area by law enforcement, one in plain clothes, probable detective, because we were close, but not in the path of the tornado, about a mile away or less. I know some of the cops were panicking, because they looked young and inexperienced. I also have that on video. He said if we did not immediately turn around and leave the area, we would be arrested. So, some cops will have an attitude; just a caution.

 

[Mike Smith]

Everyone:

FYI: At Chasercon 2019, which was held in Wichita, we had the Kansas Highway Patrol, Wichita police and the Sedgwick Co. sheriff's office as part of a panel discussion. They all emphasized that storm chasing is legal and that they do not and will not hassle storm chasers who obey the law.

That stated, there are two ways of looking at the 2016 event:

• Cops with an attitude. We certainly have our share of those. However, they have an attitude about everything, and it is not directed specifically about chasing.
• The other and, perhaps more likely, if there was damaged they were worried about looting. I was genuinely shocked by the reports of looting after the Andover Tornado three weeks ago. In a situation like that, the cops' reaction is, "keep everyone out and we'll sort it out later!"

I wouldn't let the incidents from 2012-2016 (and, there were several, ask Lanny Dean and others) stop me from chasing in Kansas today.

 

[Brian OConnell]

So, some cops will have an attitude; just a caution.

This can be said about any place and activity, my question is about whether there are specific states or jurisdictions where chasers are at elevated risk of being arrested, and from your post it's not clear if this is just a general comment about cops or specifically a Kansas issue

 

[Matt Hunt]

The largest hail is typically in the inflow notch area, and yes it's often just south of the precip. If you encounter large hail, drop a bit further south, however, keep in mind it can get flung around the RFD, too. But for the most part, if you're due east of the meso, you should be fine.

Regarding roads, I always try to avoid dirt roads unless they're wide, graded roads. I had quite the adventure down a curvy dirt road in Nebraska in 2019 just across the border from CO, that in many spots turned to just two dirt lines with grass in the middle. Luckily I was still able to make it through with my Honda Accord, but it was dicey.

 

[Brian OConnell]

The largest hail is typically in the inflow notch area, and yes it's often just south of the precip. If you encounter large hail, drop a bit further south,

Are you assuming I am north of the meso in between the meso and FFD?

for the most part, if you're due east of the meso, you should be fine.

Fine hail wise maybe, but this seems like a position to get hit by a tornado, I usually watch mesocyclones from the south or southeast to stay out of the path

Regarding roads, I always try to avoid dirt roads unless they're wide, graded roads. I had quite the adventure down a curvy dirt road in Nebraska in 2019 just across the border from CO, that in many spots turned to just two dirt lines with grass in the middle. Luckily I was still able to make it through with my Honda Accord, but it was dicey.

I'm not sure how you define "wide graded" but I am talking about the county road grid, not winding trail-like roads.

 

[samuel stone]

I live in rural Kansas near Chapman, as far as the washboards go, you just gotta get up to speed on em and then you'll just kinda skip across em. But don't gun it and slow down for turns sooner you can definently fish tail.

For muddy roads.. atleast in east central Kansas theres alot of well-graveled roads in the county grid but definently stay off the clay or silt if its wet and you don't have 4-wheel.

As for law enforcement I've never had a problem with them, but haven't chased a whole hell of alot in the last 8 years or so, once or twice a year. Didn't have any problems on the Abilene Chapman EF4 in 2016

 

[Matt Hunt]

Are you assuming I am north of the meso in between the meso and FFD?



Fine hail wise maybe, but this seems like a position to get hit by a tornado, I usually watch mesocyclones from the south or southeast to stay out of the path



I'm not sure how you define "wide graded" but I am talking about the county road grid, not winding trail-like roads.

1. Yes, more or less, but it can extend out to the east a ways as well. Every storm is different, of course.

2. Yeah, typically in the path is the best view. Using a landmark, you can tell if it's moving to the left or right of that landmark, or not moving either direction. If it's not moving either direction away from that landmark, it's coming right for you. Of course the idea is to continue moving east and stay in front of it. At least that's what I *try* to do, but it's always dependent on the roads. Once rain wraps around the RFD, you'll have no view from the south or southeast, but yes that is the safest position.

3. Wide meaning... wide. Those are typically more often used routes, and therefore in better shape. Graded meaning, they come through and level it out to get rid of those washboards. Of course with dirt roads, you never know when it might turn to garbage. I try to just stick to pavement for the most part.

 

[Brian OConnell]

1. Yes, more or less, but it can extend out to the east a ways as well. Every storm is different, of course.

That makes sense, becasue the largest hail should fall closest to the updraft, I just wanted to make sure you weren't saying hail is being flung out the south side of the meso

2. Yeah, typically in the path is the best view. Using a landmark, you can tell if it's moving to the left or right of that landmark, or not moving either direction. If it's not moving either direction away from that landmark, it's coming right for you. Of course the idea is to continue moving east and stay in front of it. At least that's what I *try* to do, but it's always dependent on the roads. Once rain wraps around the RFD, you'll have no view from the south or southeast, but yes that is the safest position.

This would rarely work in the east, by the time the meso was close enough to see clearly despite humidity and low cloud bases and terrain in the way you would be close enough that your escape would risk taking you through one of the downdrafts, risking impact by falling trees or escape route blockage

3. Wide meaning... wide. Those are typically more often used routes, and therefore in better shape. Graded meaning, they come through and level it out to get rid of those washboards. Of course with dirt roads, you never know when it might turn to garbage. I try to just stick to pavement for the most part.

Wide is a relative term, when I hear wide I think of major state highways, but I don't think any dirt road is that wide, as for grading, the washboard roads I was on looked like they had been graded that spring, just not recently enough to stop the washboards

Pavement is nice, but from what i've seen there doesnt seem to be much of it on the CO plains

 

[Joey Ketcham]

Cops: Does chasing storms in Kansas require being willing to risk arrest? I hear stories of Kansas cops targeting chasers but I do not know to what extent these are the isolated bad cop stories you can find anywhere and to what extent crossing over the Kansas line is a risk if you can't take a chance on ending up in jail. Also where I live no one follows the speed limit exactly, they all add 5-8 MPH to any 40 or greater speed limit and (correctly)assume they won't be ticketed (even my driving instructor told me I am unlikely to be stopped if I am going 7 over or less), but I have heard this is not true everywhere, especially western states with higher speed limits? (I do not intend to drive dangerously but I have gotten used to doing 59 in 55s and 70 is 65s since everyone else is doing that or worse)

Obey the law, don't be irresponsible and you'll be fine. These reports you speak of are years old, and a lot of it was during the craze that came along with Discovery's Storm Chaser show that put storm chasing back into the limelight causing hordes of people who probably shouldn't have been chasing to begin with to clog up Kansas roads and acting completely irresponsible (passing on the wrong side of the road, completely blocking roads, going around barricades, speeding, etc).

I lived in Kansas much of my life and have chased all over the state since the 90's and honestly not once have I had any bad encounters with law enforcement. Really, about the only encounters I had was when I would be pulled off somewhere waiting for storms to fire and a police officer/deputy would approach to make sure I wasn't broken down or anything. Once I explained what I was doing, the conversation went straight to what the severe weather threat was and what was expected. Always friendly interactions and have nothing negative to say about Kansas law enforcement.

Like I said, obey the traffic laws, don't be irresponsible and drive like an idiot, don't block roadways and you'll be fine.

 

[Matt Zumbrunn]

Alot of western KS roads get slimy with a little moisture. I distinctly remember sliding backwards in 4wd down a hill pheasant hunting one day. And that was with aggressive mud tires. If I went into a ditch only a 4x4 tractor was getting me out. I know turkey hunting forums have countless tales of walking out on foot to a hard packed road.