Activating sirens for severe winds

[Robert Dewey]

Why do we have warnings for 58mph then?

To be honest, I'm against the criteria being that low to begin with.

In essence, it will devalue the Severe Thunderstorm warning below the siren threshold. That's fine I guess but then you might as well up the Severe Thunderstorm criteria then.

I'm all for that.

 

[rdale]

The wind speed figure given in the warnings always seems to be worst-case and it isn't updated as the storm winds down.

Incorrect on both counts... The speeds and hail sizes given are what the forecaster expects. And that coded line is update in followup SVSs.

SVRs are ignored by the public anyways, so there is no worry about them losing value.

 

[James Hammett]

The speeds and hail sizes given are what the forecaster expects. And that coded line is update in followup SVSs.

I don't doubt that. However the forecasters are human and what I mentioned was simply a personal observation.

Edit: Also, is the given wind speed supposed to be the expected average or the expected maximum? I would expect the maximum and that jives with my experience as well. If it is the maximum, that needs to be taken into consideration when setting the threshold for sounding the alarm.

SVRs are ignored by the public anyways, so there is no worry about them losing value.

Yes, but they are looked at by emergency management to determine when to sound the alarm. That's what we're talking about here.

 

[Richard Nelson]

First off, lets clarify something here, and not meaning to step on anybodys toes here.... Sirens today are refered to as Outdoor Warning Sirens, not as civil warning sirens, albeit they are called by different names in different regions. The moniker "Tornado Siren" is primarily in part to the central United States using outddor warning systems for just that purpose.....tornado warnings. Honestly, when was the last time we were under threat of a nuclear attack, although with the nut jobs in the Middle East, this could well come to fruit one day!

Now, back to the original discussion at hand..... In my community here south of Chicago, we have a policy of activating our sirens for both tornadoes, and damaging winds over 80 MPH. One town south of me, after putting up new sirens many years back, would sound them for every bird fart storm that came through......if they sky got dark, they'd set them off. Finally the town woke up and put into place a more sensible policy! But, a friend of mine from Cincinnati tells me they sound their sirens for every Severe Thunderstorm Warning, if a Tornado Watch is in effect. Honestly I do not agree with this, and a local weather forecaster from one of the major TV stations in Cincy., is trying to get that policy changed. His thought is that crying wolf too often, is only going to create more apathy among the citizens.

Personally, the sounding of sirens for an approaching storm should mean one thing.....you may well be in imminent danger,...get to shelter as quickly as possible!

 

[MatthewCarman]

First off, lets clarify something here, and not meaning to step on anybodys toes here.... Sirens today are refered to as Outdoor Warning Sirens, not as civil warning sirens, albeit they are called by different names in different regions. The moniker "Tornado Siren" is primarily in part to the central United States using outddor warning systems for just that purpose.....tornado warnings. Honestly, when was the last time we were under threat of a nuclear attack, although with the nut jobs in the Middle East, this could well come to fruit one day!

Baxter, Iowa used to sound the sirens when there was a fire in or outside of town. Maybe to let the volunteer fire fighters know to get to the station. I don't live there now so I can't say if they still do that but one time I spotted the top of a telephone poll on fire. The fire was slowly burning towards the wires. The fire department was called and the sirens was sounded. My point is the sirens can be sounded for much more then tornadoes. They are not and never will be just tornado sirens.

 

[Penny Lehner]

Fort Dodge sounded the sirens this past Saturday night at 12:25 a.m. for a tornado warning. The town was not in the expected path but they still do county wide warnings. 10 minutes later another tornado warning was issued for another part of the county but the sirens were not sounded again. We however did get hit with high winds from the same storm.

Sorry, they are still called civil warning sirens where I come from. And they are sounded for a lot more than just a tornado warning. I know of many towns around me that sound them for the volunteer fire department.

My personal opinion, high wind events qualify for the sirens to be sounded. How high of winds though? Well, we could discuss that until hell freezes over but we will never agree completely. And it really doesn't matter anyways unless the NWS sets a standard.

I do not believe the sirens should be sounded for a severe thunderstorm if high winds are not sustained. If you're dumb enough to stay outside during lightening then the human race will be better off without you in the gene pool.

 

[Stephen Locke]

7-20-10

This evening I was in the hamlet of Williamsburg, Kansas working a line of embedded supercells. I lost data and could not get it back. Williamsburg was blowing the sirens. I did not think a tornado was imminent due to my familiarity with the synoptic situation. Nonetheless it was disconcerting to hear the sirens while cut off from data... wondering if I really knew what was going on. In my opinion activating the sirens for straight line winds is overly dramatic. Save them for the real deal.

 

[Penny Lehner]

In my opinion activating the sirens for straight line winds is overly dramatic. Save them for the real deal.

Really? Because I have seen straight line winds do as much damage as an F1 tornado. Huge trees down, roofs blown off, cars blown off the road, etc. I consider straight line winds the "real deal" as they can cause injury to people and damage to property.

 

[Bob Hall]

Small world -- I also grew up in Dakota County, MN (southeastern Twin Cities metro for those who aren't familiar). The "sound the sirens for every severe thunderstorm warning" was, IMO, ridiculous. Like you, everyone I knew essentially ignored the sirens as a result of the high frequency of their activation compared to the threats that verified. Sounding the sirens for a storm with 0.75" hail (this was well before the 1" hail severe criterion change) that was NOT a threat to life and only a very small threat to property only added to the "overwarning" issue.

Really small world! I spent 19 of my first 21 years on the planet growing up in Hennepin County, MN. I never really thought about it, but after living in Tulsa for 18 years I have re-associated what sirens mean. I was traveling back to MN several years ago in August and the sirens did go off. I was on business and did not have the normal situational awareness and momentarily freaked until reminded by a local coworker that “sirens go off on severe.â€￾ Traveling to even a familiar, let alone strange city also creates another level of complexity for the public.

This produces an interesting conundrum in that we for instance in Oklahoma probably don’t pay enough attention to Severe Thunderstorm Warnings, and other areas probably desensitize the public to Tornado Warnings by sounding sirens on severe.

Tulsa’s outdoor warning sirens have a constant wail for Tornado or winds greater than 90 mph, “Europeanâ€￾ alternating high-low for flooding, wail-quiet-wail-quiet for Nuclear attack, “Speakerâ€￾ mode for verbal instructions (not very effective) and I believe one more tone pattern that has not been defined.

 

[Chris Nuttall]

My personal opinion, high wind events qualify for the sirens to be sounded. How high of winds though? Well, we could discuss that until hell freezes over but we will never agree completely. And it really doesn't matter anyways unless the NWS sets a standard.

Except the NWS has nothing to do with the decision to sound sirens. That falls into the realm of city/county officials. These "standards" are going to be different for different locations. Locations in the Texas Panhandle experience gradient wind events several times a year where the winds gust to 58+ mph.

 

[rdale]

How high of winds though? Well, we could discuss that until hell freezes over but we will never agree completely.

Remember thought that such a decision is not up for us to agree on. Sirens are completely local. If the people of a community want it sounded for every SVR, then that is their choice. If they never sound until a tornado is on the ground inside the city limits, that is their call too... Outsiders have ZERO impact on the criteria.

 

[Robert Dewey]

Save them for the real deal.

I'm interested in knowing what the "real deal" is? Would 130MPH straight line winds qualify? Would a 80-90MPH tornado qualify? Etc..

 

[Adam Reagan]

Greetings from the Boro;

IMHO warnings associated with a derecho or any severe thunderstorm warning with the possibility of hurricane-force winds calls for urgent attention by the general public even if it means using the town's outdoor warning sirens as these events can be as destructive as a weak tornado.

 

[David Reimer]

Many of the cities in the D/FW Metroplex will sound their sirens for winds over 80 MPH and of course a Tornado Warning. An exception was back in 2009 when an HP supercell with confirmed softball sized hail moved into Tarrant County and Fort Worth. Sirens were activated in that case. Otherwise leave the sirens off. That's what Weather Radios are for.

Also with a derecho or high wind event with winds over 80 MPH you do start having the risk of brief spinup tornadoes at least down here in this part of the country. Perfect example was April 10, 2008 when the metroplex got pounded with several tornadoes from a significant derecho. Over 600K lost power and many cities activated sirens. Those that did not were chastised by the public severely.

 

[Mike Smith]

There is an article posted at Wall Street Journal online (subscription may be required) about San Francisco's new outdoor warning sirens. The article is here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...63923539530.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLESecondNews

If you read the article, you'll find that they have had them since World War II and they have never been sounded.