5/1/08 DISC: SD/IA/NE/MO/KS/OK

[rdale]

There really shouldn't be much debate on the issue - if a thunderstorm is coming that people NEED to take shelter from, sirens should be sounded.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

The article in the Star basically says that it was the call of the EMS to sound sirens, and the EMS said that they didn't sound sirens because there was no tornado warning. Sounds like possible lack of communication -

We did get sirens earlier in the evening for a tornado that was 15 miles south. My home was at the edge of the core during that supercell.

 

[Joe Lauria]

I'll chime in here...

I remember a case, I'm still fuzzy on the exact when, about 3-5 years ago for Jackson county, MO...about 3AM or so and a severe t/storm warn was issued for reported winds of 90-100 mph or something close. I believe a request was made for siren issuance...the sirens were set off...that's the only time I can remember them going off for ST warnings.

The warnings that were issued the other night and follow up statements by EAX made references to hurricane force winds...I feel EAX did as good as possible in this type of situation...this is not the first time we've seen these spin ups...I remember another instance a few years ago towards Holden, MO I think where something similiar happened at 5:30 in the AM...

I disagree somewhat with rdale (whom I don't know personally but enjoy his contributions in various forums). How do you determine when someone NEEDS to take shelter...50...60...70...80...90MPH...sirens around here would be going off all the time...especially when we have 10 counties plus under warnings at the same time...people are already siren weary since (if) whatever doesn't directly affect their home.

What I'm MORE concerned about is a general disregard by most of the public about ST warnings these days...through no fault of NWS...there are so many nowadays that it is turning into noise around here...the solution to this I have no idea.

Apologies for the convoluted thoughts...

Sleep deprived in KC.
Joe Lauria
FOX 4

 

[Daniel Christianson]

1. You hear a warning and take shelter good for you" you listened.

2. You hear a warning and ignore it because you hear the sirens alot, ITS ON YOU...

3. ( Sirens didnt go off, but say you knew there were storms in the area coming w.e and you just ignored it, i know this could go into a whole other range of what if's, no wx radios and so fourth.

Blame the NWS, EMS, blame the people who made sirens, blame the way the houses are built, blame blame blame" sadly it seems like thats all people know is how to blame in weather situations, take responsibility for your own actions, but hey were all human and blaming is instinct right"?

 

[rdale]

How do you determine when someone NEEDS to take shelter...50...60...70...80...90MPH...sirens around here would be going off all the time...especially when we have 10 counties plus under warnings at the same time...people are already siren weary since (if) whatever doesn't directly affect their home.

If widespread damage is expected AND HAS OCCURRED, i.e. hurricane force winds, then I say sound the sirens. Our county EMA does that now, and NWS GRR is working to get others to do as well in the region. I think IF IT'S CONFIRMED that you have 80+mph winds, and you know where it's going, that sirens should be sounded. People should treat it exactly the same as a tornado, and it's something we would go wall-to-wall on.

 

[Dick McGowan]

On Thursday night, the sirens didn't go off in Lawrence either, even though the NWS in Topeka issued a tornado warning for Northwestern Douglas County, including Lawrence.

It's now a HOT topic online, some are wanting this guy's resignation: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2008/may/02/emergency_officer_it_never_crossed_my_mind_activat/

On spotter network, alone, at the time, Scott B. was on the Clinton Dam southwest of Lawrence and Scott C. was northeast of there, on the northwestern side of Lawrence at mile marker 201 on I-70. So there were at least two spotters on the storm, neither reporting anything tornadic. The ones complaining about the sirens not sounding, would probably be the ones complaining why he did sound the sirens so late... because there wasn't a tornado. (The rotation ended up being 6-8 miles west of the city)

But...I don't see the point in the NWS issuing a tornado warning at all, if that person in charge of alerting the city doesn't sound the sirens. If he's wanting to wait for confirmation of a tornado before sounding them, he might wait forever, before it's too late. Does this person in charge even have radar and is familiar with interpreting it?

From Douglas county's policy:

Douglas County Kansas Outdoor Warning Siren Policy

Activation
The outdoor warning sirens for any or all of the cities in Douglas County are activated when a local determination is made that a tornado threat to the area exists. This determination is made by Douglas County Emergency Management staff and will be based on the evaluation of all available information. This may include, but is not limited to, National Weather Service watch and/or warning text, weather radar and reports from trained weather spotters or law enforcement officers.
The decision to activate the sirens will normally be made by the Emergency Management Duty Officer. If no such person is on duty or that person is not immediately available, the jurisdictional senior law enforcement officer on duty will make the decision and direct the Emergency Communications Center staff to activate the sirens.
Douglas County has the capability of activating all of the sirens at once or more selectively by activating one or more of the six siren zones. All sirens are sounded unless the threat is clearly confined to an individual zone(s). The sirens will be sounded for three minutes initially, and then intermittently throughout the warning period as needed. There is NO "all-clear" siren.

 

[rdale]

But...I don't see the point in the NWS issuing a tornado warning at all, if that person in charge of alerting the city doesn't sound the sirens.

Because sirens are only one way of warning the public... TV stations interrupt broadcasts for tornadoes, cell phones can alert, radios interrupt, etc. Sirens are not the end-all. Important? Of course. The only way? No.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

There's just nothing good about an extreme bow echo/wind event at 2:00 am with tornadoes embedded in cells that are typically outflow dominant. People should remember and be reminded that severe thunderstorms can and do produce tornadoes. Lots of people live outside the range of sirens, but they've learned to be more cognizant on spring nights. The system works well for the most part, but this is a fight where sometimes the sky is going to get the upper hand.

And I can't tell you how many people have told me that they don't pay attention to the warnings anymore ... they are so used to them that they go on about their evening as if they don't exist. Apathy seems like the biggest danger here -

 

[rdale]

And I can't tell you how many people have told me that they don't pay attention to the warnings anymore ...

I think a lot of that has to do with the NWS warning criteria... Most SVR's are for dime sized hail on storms that have NO potential for large hail, NO potential for damaging winds and NO potential for a tornado. So when the rare "really severe" storm gets warned on, people remember the 99% of warnings that weren't so bad...

 

[Bob Hartig]

And I can't tell you how many people have told me that they don't pay attention to the warnings anymore ... they are so used to them that they go on about their evening as if they don't exist. Apathy seems like the biggest danger here -

At the risk of resurrecting a previous debate, this is in my mind why enhanced wording--i.e. "tornado emergency"--is appropriate and desirable in extreme situations.

 

[Marcus Opitz]

I would bet that if more people had weather radios that go off when a warning is issued it would save many lives. When I worked in Florida in Feb, 2007, if memory serves me correctly, a nasty string of tornadoes hit central florida causing widespread damage at around 3 am.. I think it killed 2 dozen people. I don't think many cities in Florida have sirens. WEATHER RADIO IS WHERE ITS AT!!!!!!!!

 

[John Farley]

In case anyone hasn't seen it, Jon Davies has a nice discussion of the Kansas City area tornadoes at:

http://davieswx.blogspot.com/

Scroll down past the discussion of the landspout tornadoes in western Kansas to the next item after that.