2011-04-22 DISC: MO/IL/OK

[Mike Smith]

Here is more on the problem involving tornado warnings and aviation: http://meteorologicalmusings.blogspot.com/2011/04/more-on-problem-with-tornado-warnings.html

It includes a quote from a Delta pilot at the gate and security camera video of people running for their lives when the tornado struck.

 

[Kevin Crawmer]

Is this the tornado that affected the airport? Interesting, I have yet to see an impressive velocity couplet with this storm, but there was a pretty clear debris ball signature on radar.

Bridgeton in southwest of the airport. Last I checked the NWS survey teams had not reached the airport yet.

 

[N Parker]

Is this the tornado that affected the airport? Interesting, I have yet to see an impressive velocity couplet with this storm, but there was a pretty clear debris ball signature on radar.

Here is a scan right around the time Lambert took a hit...got plenty more as well...

 

[Mike Smith]

EF-2 at Lambert. EF-4 peak intensity.

 

[Greg Stumpf]

Kevin Rolfs, Isaac Pato, Scott Peake and I were sitting right in the inflow notch of the second storm by Byars, OK. Saw one funnel and a nice white tornado that was on the ground for about 30 seconds. The inflow winds were gusting over 60 mph as it was shredding trees around us and destroyed a tin outbuilding that blew into and took out some power lines about a quarter mile behind us. The yellow/orange tint to the sky underneath the base was beautiful! Here is our video.

Well whaddya know - it was anticyclonic, but on the left (north) side of the low-level meso. I've never seen that before!

 

[Jeff Duda]

Here is more on the problem involving tornado warnings and aviation: http://meteorologicalmusings.blogspot.com/2011/04/more-on-problem-with-tornado-warnings.html

It includes a quote from a Delta pilot at the gate and security camera video of people running for their lives when the tornado struck.

Wow...just...wow. This makes it seem like it's going to take a mile wide EF5 with a 150 mi long damage path and visibility for miles destroying billions of dollars worth of homes, office buildings, and government property before certain agencies *cough* ( the FAA...among others ) *cough* will ever wake up and start actually giving people warnings. It's no wonder some people claim that a storm hit with no warning with stuff like this going on. Do these agencies think their constituents don't deserve to get the warnings for some reason? If I were on that plane, I would consider a lawsuit against the FAA for causing my life to be unnecessarily threatened (by something other than the normal ebb-and-flow of US commercial air travel). That's just really insulting to the well-beings of those people.

 

[Mike Smith]

Jeff,

As I talk about in Warnings, the FAA seems to see some sort of line between "weather" and "aviation weather" and if a product does not originate as the latter, it isn't distributed in the aviation weather database.

The FAA's history is to drag its feet on weather innovations. Heck, we outside the FAA got TDWR less than two years ago, a decade after the radars were installed! TDWR was very valuable in STL Friday evening.

Mike

 

[Winston Wells]

Interesting thread so far. Could I add another issue for discussion? Did the LSX WFO declare a tornado emergency at any point on Friday evening? I may very well be incorrect here - I was heading north on I-44 at the time - but I don't recall seeing a warning statement that used this language.

If a tornado emergency was not declared, what factors might have played into this decision - lack of a clear visual, for example? I know this requires speculation on our part, but I was struck by the term's usage several times during the 4/16 North Carolina outbreak. (I also mean no criticism of LSX's staff, who I thought did an excellent job throughout the evening).

 

[Jane Herbert]

Clyve Herbert and I were chasing around the Rosedale area

http://www.stormchasers.au.com/usa220411.htm

 

[Carla Bisby]

Interesting thread so far. Could I add another issue for discussion? Did the LSX WFO declare a tornado emergency at any point on Friday evening? I may very well be incorrect here - I was heading north on I-44 at the time - but I don't recall seeing a warning statement that used this language.

If a tornado emergency was not declared, what factors might have played into this decision - lack of a clear visual, for example? I know this requires speculation on our part, but I was struck by the term's usage several times during the 4/16 North Carolina outbreak. (I also mean no criticism of LSX's staff, who I thought did an excellent job throughout the evening).

I had my wx radio on the whole time I was out chasing and never heard a tornado emergency declared. They were saying there was a confirmed damaging tornado though.

 

[Jesse Risley]

Interesting thread so far. Could I add another issue for discussion? Did the LSX WFO declare a tornado emergency at any point on Friday evening? I may very well be incorrect here - I was heading north on I-44 at the time - but I don't recall seeing a warning statement that used this language.

If a tornado emergency was not declared, what factors might have played into this decision - lack of a clear visual, for example? I know this requires speculation on our part, but I was struck by the term's usage several times during the 4/16 North Carolina outbreak. (I also mean no criticism of LSX's staff, who I thought did an excellent job throughout the evening).

I don't work for the NWS, so I can only speculate, but this document from Des Moines is worth a read: http://www.crh.noaa.gov/images/dmx/Media Advisory 2010-01.pdf

Since this is enhanced wording, and not an actual "warning" type itself per se (e.g., SVR T-storm, Flash Flood, Tornado, etc.), I can only assume that the person that was calling the shots (WCM?) was comfortable enough with the wording being used in the warnings that were already being issued. Some offices may not be comfortable enough with what is still somewhat subjective wording.

 

[Mike Smith]

I am going to jump in here (get ready to switch to "flame"mode) and state that the warnings were a success in St. Louis without the TE.

As everyone knows who has read the (too long) thread on the the subject, I believe the TE is a bad idea and it is undeniable that most of them have been busts.

 

[L Kimbrel]

Interesting thread so far. Could I add another issue for discussion? Did the LSX WFO declare a tornado emergency at any point on Friday evening? I may very well be incorrect here - I was heading north on I-44 at the time - but I don't recall seeing a warning statement that used this language.

If a tornado emergency was not declared, what factors might have played into this decision - lack of a clear visual, for example? I know this requires speculation on our part, but I was struck by the term's usage several times during the 4/16 North Carolina outbreak. (I also mean no criticism of LSX's staff, who I thought did an excellent job throughout the evening).

I don't know about LSX WFO, but I was watching The Weather Channel's Jim Cantrell and Greg Forbes tracking this storm as it went through the North County, and Cantrell used the term "tornado emergency in St. Louis" more than once. I was impressed by the accuracy with which they translated what they were seeing on the radar moment-by-moment into what was in fact occurring on the ground.

 

[Jason Hobbs]

I know for a fact that we've got a Meteorology department (or at least page) in Delta, but as a mechanic I'm not privy to the flight-planning materials. What I do know is on DeltaNet we can pull general wx maps. I'm not entirely certain yet as to how much information we get, simply because I don't understand half of what I'm looking at still. What else I know is that I can't get down from a US/Canada-wide map to a regional map, save for one or two instances. That may be changing, I know they're beta-testing a new wx page. Maybe when I have an opportunity to sit down on a chase-drive, I'll log in and have some of it explained to me.

 

[Jeff Duda]

I am going to jump in here (get ready to switch to "flame"mode) and state that the warnings were a success in St. Louis without the TE.

Given the count of 0 deaths, and from what I'm hearing, minimal injuries, I would agree with this statement, and that most tornado emergencies are indeed busts. There seems to be way too much reliance on them to actually get a serious warning out, but that is the beginning of a post for the other thread.