Anonymous
What of the elderly and the sick, who stayed because they couldn't find transportation to the Superdome, let alone evacuate? I don't think they were "playing."
VERY Disturbed with Bush and the Federal Response!!!
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What of the elderly and the sick, who stayed because they couldn't find transportation to the Superdome, let alone evacuate? I don't think they were "playing."
Rob_Davis
Maybe, but the vast majority of those who died did so because of a storm, not because the federal government didn't helicopter them out afterwards. That is the fact.
Anonymous
No, there's also many facts littered about the Convention Center... the elderly and infirm that survived the storm dying from thirst, from hunger, from lack of medical attention!
Bill Tabor
EF5
My thoughts are in the following thread:
http://stormtrack.org/forum/viewtopic.php?...p?p=94056#94056
http://stormtrack.org/forum/viewtopic.php?...p?p=94056#94056
Miriam Lawrence
EF1
FEMA director has acknowledged that FEMA did not expect the unrest and violence that has broken out. I don't know which is more pathetic, that or Bush saying no one expected the levees to break.
You've got to be living on PLUTO not to have predicted and modeled and trained for civil unrest and looting and violence in ANY major disaster scenario in ANY major city in the United States, much less in a flooded city where 25% of the people live under the poverty line. That lack of foresight and resulting lack of blitzkreig action to contain the unrest has been one of the biggest problems in NOLA.
In addition, no planning was done ahead of time to provide means for those without other means to evacuate in the first place. NPR reported this morning that the use of trains and barges was contemplated at some point in planning, but the final plan assumed most people would have their own transportation. Again, complete disconnect with reality and lack of foresight/resources -- even though this problem was identified in print years ago:
and further exposed last year in the city's narrow escape from Ivan:
I've seen interviews with many who stayed not because they wanted to but because they had no practical way out. Many with means did try, saw the traffic, just assumed it was hopeless and went home. Those of us here watch the weather for fun and profit. Most people don't. We would have been out of there on Friday or Saturday. For a lot of folks who waited to be told to leave, it was already too late. Others have already discussed the sick, elderly, and infirm.
And many just didn't have the means. From a WWL Katrina Blog item about Jesse Jackson's press conference today:
I realize Jackson has multiple axes to grind and may have his facts wrong, but that number sounds quite reasonable to me. Official numbers cited all over the media have said that 25% of the city's population lives below poverty line. The 2005 definition of poverty for a household of one person is $9,570, and the population of NOLA is just under 500,000. You do the math. And then tell me how you're supposed to afford a car or a hotel room on YOUR $8,000 per year.
As I've said before, the lack of REALISTIC planning here, considering how well known the threat has been, is absolutely unconscionable. Forget politics. And the lack of action when the ramifications of that lack of planning became apparent is appalling.
You've got to be living on PLUTO not to have predicted and modeled and trained for civil unrest and looting and violence in ANY major disaster scenario in ANY major city in the United States, much less in a flooded city where 25% of the people live under the poverty line. That lack of foresight and resulting lack of blitzkreig action to contain the unrest has been one of the biggest problems in NOLA.
In addition, no planning was done ahead of time to provide means for those without other means to evacuate in the first place. NPR reported this morning that the use of trains and barges was contemplated at some point in planning, but the final plan assumed most people would have their own transportation. Again, complete disconnect with reality and lack of foresight/resources -- even though this problem was identified in print years ago:
and further exposed last year in the city's narrow escape from Ivan:
I've seen interviews with many who stayed not because they wanted to but because they had no practical way out. Many with means did try, saw the traffic, just assumed it was hopeless and went home. Those of us here watch the weather for fun and profit. Most people don't. We would have been out of there on Friday or Saturday. For a lot of folks who waited to be told to leave, it was already too late. Others have already discussed the sick, elderly, and infirm.
And many just didn't have the means. From a WWL Katrina Blog item about Jesse Jackson's press conference today:
I realize Jackson has multiple axes to grind and may have his facts wrong, but that number sounds quite reasonable to me. Official numbers cited all over the media have said that 25% of the city's population lives below poverty line. The 2005 definition of poverty for a household of one person is $9,570, and the population of NOLA is just under 500,000. You do the math. And then tell me how you're supposed to afford a car or a hotel room on YOUR $8,000 per year.
As I've said before, the lack of REALISTIC planning here, considering how well known the threat has been, is absolutely unconscionable. Forget politics. And the lack of action when the ramifications of that lack of planning became apparent is appalling.
Jay McCoy
EF5
To say the least after last years close call the city should have created a plan to have central shelters supplied with food, water and medicine before the hurricane season. Even telling people to go to the dome the day before, they should have already had food and water being sent into the dome also. They should have also had generators set up by the dome to supply power for AC and lights to the dome. I see this as more a failure of the local and state authorities than a federal one. FEMA, Red Cross, national guard, etc is a reactionary force meant to go in and help afterward but the local government should have been more prepared BEFORE the hurricane hit. they knew 25% couldnt evacuate and had no plan to help them except to say "get out now". The mayor can scream and cuss all he wants but he is the one who failed to prepare his city.
Rob_Davis
Unfortunately, you're absolutely right. FEMA still lives by the Cold War models of evacuation and shelter management. Nothing has been updated in decades. And those plans were outdated even then. The were developed for suburban 1950's America and counted on mom, dad, and their 2.3 kids having a Buick in the garage and a brother in the next state they could go stay with. It did not take into account any of the realities of urban America, today or days past.
I went on record before the storm even hit as saying that the Superdome was going to be a powderkeg within a very short period of time. People here and elsewhere who are NOT FEMA officials told me I was wrong. That desperate people would behave perfectly reasonably. Ooops!
The plan was perfect by the book. Problem is, the book is 50 years old.
I went on record before the storm even hit as saying that the Superdome was going to be a powderkeg within a very short period of time. People here and elsewhere who are NOT FEMA officials told me I was wrong. That desperate people would behave perfectly reasonably. Ooops!
The plan was perfect by the book. Problem is, the book is 50 years old.
Jay McCoy
EF5
But the plan wasnt FEMA rob. It was locals who decided the dome was good idea and told people to go there and the convention center. Only thing is they did so without also sending supplies and generators.
People think FEMA is this huge organization with tons of materials when actually all they do is coordinate supplies and efforts. They are the admin of a relief effort.
People think FEMA is this huge organization with tons of materials when actually all they do is coordinate supplies and efforts. They are the admin of a relief effort.
Dave Kaplow
EF4
I listened to part of what the president said today, and all politics aside, you really have to wonder if the man truly gets it. After what we've seen these past few days, to hear the leader of our country say "my attitude is, if things aren't going exactly right, we'll make them exactly right" (possible not the exact wording) just blows my mind. If things aren't exactly right??? I couldn't believe I heard our president say that. He also said that FEMA is doing "a heck of a job". One gets the impression that the man simply isn't seeing the same things as the rest of the country. There is never any real emotion in his voice, he sounds just like he does when reporting economic figures. My god, is there anyone reading this who has not found themselves with tears in their eyes this past week? I genuinely wonder if the president might not be so isolated by beaurocracy that he simply doesn't get to see the important stuff. I imagine that there is someone on his staff who's job is basically to watch television, but does the president himself ever watch? Does he see the same things we've seen? Or does he rely on his aides to give him the overall picture? I don't know, it just seems to me like there is a disconnect here, that this man really and truly doesn't understand the true depths of the societal breakdown that has occurred in the wake of Katrina. I agree (to an extent) that there were decades of neglect that contributed to the problem and that one can't really place all the blame on the current administration. But you can blame them for not understanding the mood of the country after seeing these devastating images day after day, with no relief in sight. This tragedy will now be forever a part of our collective consciousness. It is a low point in the history of this country, and as a nation we are justifiably outraged. But when I look to the White House I see no signs of outrage at all. And that alone is pretty outrageous.
Rob_Davis
Agreed. I just meant that all the conventional wisdom used in this country regarding evacuation and shelter management is based upon the old federal literature. And that's what the locals use to develop their plans.
Dave Kaplow
EF4
Rob, what you keep saying is, in essence, that these people all deserved what they got, because they refused rides to a shelter. Are you aware that before the tragedy NO officials flat-out admitted that there was no way to get everybody out of the inner city? They didn't even try. There may have been some transportation here and there, but there was no plan in place to evacuate the people with no means to leave on there own. The effort to evacuate would have been a complete disaster even if every single person tried to get on those busses you keep talking about - in fact, if that had happened you would have seen lawlessness and desperation even before the storm hit. There was never any attempt to provide transportation out of the city to the poor people who were expected to be unable to get out on their own. If you think there was such a plan in place, and that they had the capacity to evacuate everyone, I would like to see your source. I recall hearing many time that the resources were simply not available to completely evacuate the city - not even close! So let's stop assuming everybody could have gotten out, the fact is they couldn't have.
B Doss
EF2
How many people remained in the city? 100,000? 200,000? How exactly were a few dozen school buses going to evacuate these people in 72 hours, and where exactly do you put them? Enlighten me.
Jeff Snyder
EF5
All,
While rules have been slackened in this temporary Katrina forum, please use your utmost discretion when it comes to comments that some may see as "hostile, abusive, or offensive". Such comments that are qualified as such will be immediately removed. If you have second thoughts about posting a comment that may be viewed as "hostile, offensive, or abusive", please refrain from posting it.
http://www.stormtrack.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7751
While rules have been slackened in this temporary Katrina forum, please use your utmost discretion when it comes to comments that some may see as "hostile, abusive, or offensive". Such comments that are qualified as such will be immediately removed. If you have second thoughts about posting a comment that may be viewed as "hostile, offensive, or abusive", please refrain from posting it.
Jason Montano
EF4
It's not that the miltary could not execute any task given to them but when a commander is responsible for those soldiers lives and well being he will never be ordered to enter a mission unprepared. The endagerment to life or sight due to rapid planning b/c of stupid political decisions is not acceptable. The military does not act that way and I would hope Americans would not want it to. When you say the job of a commander is to react to an evolving environment that is somewhat true but that evolving environment is a theatre of operations they have been operating in or thouroughly trained to do so. This is not the case for playing cop in a major US city during a natural disaster. Again not to say the mission could not be executed, very much the opposite but there would be a train-up period to do so. Again, things don't happen overnight.
Jay McCoy
EF5
Which is the point Dave. The local and state officials. Especially in EM failed to have a plan for this even though they have always known a cat4-5 would do exactly this to NO. they failed to plan and it has cost thousands of lives. At the least they shgould have had central shelter with food and water set up and transportation to those sites. to send thousands to the dome without also sending supplies was shortsited and deadly. This all comes back to a lack of a plan from EM.
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