Underground shelters built in to overpasses?

[Dave Rennie]

As others have noted, I could foresee every underpass in a tornado warned area becoming an instant parking lot for those seeking shelter. That, then, begs the question of "How large a shelter do you make?" What if a tour bus were the first to arrive at an underpass? Nice idea but too many problems. A cheaper solution would be to advertise that if you're in a car and about to be overtaken by a tornado, leave the car and get down in the burrow pit next to the road.

 

[rdale]

That's not a good idea either... I'd suggest people drive away from the tornado before I'd suggest they get out, lay in a debris collector, and let it hit.

 

[J Allen]

Funny Rdale, that would contravene what people are suggested to do by the NWS and have been for some time. Do you think that this should be removed from the warning? Or that people should be given free reign on the roads when a tornado is coming? If you suggest people to drive then they are going to run (regardless if they were in their car in the first place), and imagine the effect of this in a major city. We saw a significant number of cars running from St Louis on the 25th thanks to a tornado siren and warning.
Sure, you might be able to outrun the garden variety 30-40 mph storm moving provided you have some idea of storm motion, but what about the 50-70mph Destructive tornado that they will struggle to outrun, even if they know the correct direction to run?

Unless you have a warning method that reaches every vehicle on the road (and many vehicle owners are unaware that this potential exists, particularly out of the traditional plains) then any of these plans is going to be ineffective. The resources would be better spent in trying to notify people whats going on.

 

[Todd Renshaw]

Any blanket rule (recommendation) you can think of for tornado safety is going to have exceptions. What would be best in one situation could put you in greater danger another time. For the tornado "educated" and aware like us, follow your gut. Drive away vs. run for shelter vs. find a low spot. (Assuming circumstances still leave you a choice.)

For the public, you can't make the recommendations too complex. They have to be one-size-fits-all. So yeah, what I'd do or advise may not match NWS recommendations. But jumping in a ditch is probably going to kill someone that would have survived if they'd driven away or at least sheltered in their car. There's no set of rules you can think of that are going to save everyone. Just as there's no perfect shelter for all situations. You do the best you can.

 

[rdale]

Funny Rdale, that would contravene what people are suggested to do by the NWS and have been for some time.

I think this horse was beaten in previous threads

http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/severewe... Joint Statement on Tornado Safety_062209.pdf

and imagine the effect of this in a major city. We saw a significant number of cars running from St Louis on the 25th thanks to a tornado siren and warning.

While I haven't been to StL, I would have to think there are not a lot of ditches alongside their roads. Remember this thread here is about seeing one on the highway in an open area. I would drive away, and suggest anyone in the path get out of the way too. I would not recommend laying in the ditch and letting it hit. YMMV.

Sure, you might be able to outrun the garden variety 30-40 mph storm moving provided you have some idea of storm motion, but what about the 50-70mph Destructive tornado that they will struggle to outrun, even if they know the correct direction to run?

 

[jaredleighton]

I think this horse was beaten in previous threads

http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/severewe... Joint Statement on Tornado Safety_062209.pdf

Here is a peer-reviewed paper written by Scott Blair and Beth Lunde for the EJSSM regarding the latest guidance to motorists encountering a tornado on the interstate.

Tornadoes Impacting Interstates: Service and Societal Considerations

Unfortunately some offices are still putting the canned "get in a ditch" CTA statements in the warnings even though the NWS has officially deemed that practice a bad idea. So, NO, the NWS is not by any means encouraging the "get in a ditch" resolution to encountering a tornado in a vehicle....not anymore.

 

[rdale]

Great find! Thanks...

 

[hazelmaryjackson]

There is "official" advice. Don't drive into a tornado. Don't park on the road. Find a shelter nearby. This isn't anything new or revealing -- common sense does still apply ...rdale


So how does this work -you are driving along a turnpiked freeway in an unfamiliar part of the country and hear a tornado warning for the area just ahead on your incar radio, or even worse, are driving in a storm and realise there is a tornado up ahead of you.

How do you find shelter?

 

[Matt Tottle]

I hate to be the heartless bean counter, but according to that article, there were NINE people killed by tornadoes on interstate highways in TWENTY years. Less than one every two years. Doesn't exactly scream a need for an investment of tens or hundreds of millions of tax dollars to install shelters that will, in all actuality NEVER be used.

Trailer parks on the other hand.. I can't find any exact figures, but the common figure is between 40 and 50% of all tornado-related deaths occur in trailer homes. In the grand scheme of things we're still only talking a hundred or two hundred deaths a year, but thats still a significant number that could be prevented by mandate of trailer park community shelters. And I guarantee it costs less for any private entity to build one than a government union contract.

 

[Rob H]

130 people are killed every year from coconuts falling on their heads. Where are the Coconut early warning systems and mandatory sand shelters? Seriously, you can't legislate away every single death, and there are a lot better places to start than building shelters into overpasses.

 

[rdale]

So how does this work -you are driving along a turnpiked freeway in an unfamiliar part of the country and hear a tornado warning for the area just ahead on your incar radio, or even worse, are driving in a storm and realise there is a tornado up ahead of you.

I would turn around and go the opposite direction.

 

[Jeff Duda]

I think common sense goes A LONG WAY in this topic. If the common person doesn't have enough common sense when facing a tornado to steer clear of it and avoid injury or death, then...well...I hate to say it, but perhaps that person is not fit for this world.

 

[hazelmaryjackson]

I am not suggesting you should not use commonsense but if you are on an unfamiliar interstate, when a tornado warning comes on the radio, it may not be so easy to just turn around and head away from it. Joe motorist does not have access to radar and if e driving in an unfamiliar area and gets hit by a storm, and a tornado warning about a lot of unfamiliar place names on the radio, they might well not know which is a safe direction to go. Turning round might not be so easy either. I think that explains why they might just stop under the next underpass.

 

[Rob H]

Tornadoes are relatively small which is why so many places are never hit - it's like throwing a dart at a map. Most people will never see one in their life, and those that do will probably never see a large, violent one. I'm just pulling numbers out of air, but unless you're hit by an EF-3 or larger, you have pretty good odds of surviving in your car. If you see a tornado, turn around and go the other way. If you can't see it, odds are in your favor that it won't hit you and it's not a massive wedge. If you don't see any traffic coming from the other direction or everyone is flashing their brights, you should probably pull over (not under an overpass) for 15 minutes and let it pass. Statistics have played this one out time and time again - there just aren't that many people killed by violent tornadoes crossing interstates. So why spend millions (billions?) on shelters that will be abused more than they are used? Even then you're just training people to go somewhere that isn't safe by nature and clogging up the roads.

We can play the weather-stupid card here, but it doesn't really apply to the folks living in TX, OK, and KS - the states most likely to have tornadoes crossing interstates. They tend to know the difference between watches and warnings, what a PDS is, and how the dryline plays a role in severe weather. I constantly see locals looking up at the sky and recognize the same signs I'm looking for (and possibly more).

Why not push for something more useful, like requiring a weather radio to pass home inspections (like some states require for carbon monoxide detectors), or allow for a discount on your insurance policy like is often the case if you have a fire extinguisher in your house? No major costs to the state/country, and arguably more useful.

 

[Jason Foster]

Well....I believe it goes WAY BEYOND common sense....or COMMON now means pretty 'effing' stupid. We really need to teach folks how to receive, recognize and react properly to the danger. Watching recaps of the recent events on NatGeo Channel (yeah...they already have shows), it is interesting to see how many folks react properly (I heard folks saying how to get to the center of the house, or folks stopping people on the highway, etc.) while others were still driving right by, or conducting business until literally the "windows exploded". Teach, teach, teach! We have systems in place. If any sort of building change needs to be made, I look at new construction of homes and other buildings. We can engineer better structures to survive better or even remain intact with a reasonable investment. Sheltering in place has a better net gain. Focus on where the highest death toll is...and go after THAT.