Tornado Safety - Cars vs. Ditches Controversy

[Warren Faidley]

I was unable to find a previous thread regarding this interesting subject, so mods. please move if already discussed.

Seems there is controversy mounting after the American Red Cross altered its safety instructions for seeking shelter while in vehicles.

I was told a few weeks ago that during some kind of tornado threat, Mike Bettes told people to "either drive away" or "stay in their vehicles." I need to make it clear I did not hear the statements myself and I do not know the circumstances that lead to such comments if true. Nor do I know if his personal experiences played played a part in the statements. This is not an attack on Bettes, but it draws attention to the overall subject.

The NWS still advises to abandon vehicles and find a ditch, while the American Red Cross is suggesting to stay in the vehicle if no other shelter is available. (I'm still looking over the new material).

The obvious problems I have with these new guidelines are 1: people will become confused and think a vehicle is safer than a lot of better sheltering options. B: The average person lacks the experienced to drive away from a tornado. C: This may lead to dangerous mass evacuations by vehicle (as with El Reno). D: The average person cannot judge tornado strength or behavior, thus they may think dust swirls under a funnel is OK and stay in their vehicles only to find a violent tornado on the ground seconds later.

The public already has a subconscious / distorted view that vehicles are safe near tornadoes after watching a long list of rolling coffin chasers who incorrectly claim their vehicles can "drive into a tornado with few problems." (Sorry, ground effects are lost when the vehicle is struck by debris or winds creep under the frame, e.g., pavement scouring).

Here is a reference article from TWC:

http://www.weather.com/blog/weather/8_19417.html

W.

 

[MClarkson]

From a pure physics perspective, ignoring mass social aspects, is one actually better than the other? Both vehicles and ditches would be terrible spots in the face of an upper end tornado. I suppose if I was about to get it, I think I'd stay buckled in inside my new SUV that probably has an OK roll cage. Unless the ditch had a culvert or a pipe you could crawl into... unless that was flooding... but either one would be a terrible option.

 

[Stan Rose]

From a pure physics perspective, ignoring mass social aspects, is one actually better than the other? Both vehicles and ditches would be terrible spots in the face of an upper end tornado. I suppose if I was about to get it, I think I'd stay buckled in inside my new SUV that probably has an OK roll cage. Unless the ditch had a culvert or a pipe you could crawl into... unless that was flooding... but either one would be a terrible option.

Yeah, and that's pretty much what Forbes says as well. The Red Cross recommendations are just modifying what was previously said, and are basically saying 'every case is unique' so you do whatever is the 'best' option in whatever situation you're stuck in. I don't really see any "controversy"
What would I do? Assuming I couldn't drive away, Id probably stay put in the vehicle, that would at least offer 'some' protection. Having seen many crumpled cars, it wouldn't be a fun decision to make, but risking it out in the open would be a less appealing option. I haven't seen many 'ditches' in open countryside that are anywhere near like the bomb-shelter id want them to be in that situation.

 

[Stan Rose]

If there was any controversy--it appears to be no more. Here's the tornado safety guidelines direct from the NWS homepage:
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/severeweather/resources/ttl6-10.pdf
It identical to the Red Cross.

 

[Warren Faidley]

I'd also stay in a vehicle if there was no other option, under specific circumstances, but I'd search as fast as I could for a roadway drainage pipe or similar. I once had to make such a split decision, before mobile radar, in the dark on I-40 near Shamrock, TX when I could not find an underground culvert, etc. So I blasted east through 70-80 mph inflow galore. The Catch 22 here is explaining to people "It's a last ditch effort" (pun intended), and not an acceptable shelter vs. more reliable ones. Example: people start leaving homes to outrun the tornado because they feel safe in their cars, or they decide to drive through storms thinking cars are safe.

W.

 

[Rob H]

It would be interesting for Mythbusters to tackle the idea of driving a car *into* a ditch to survive a tornado. I've always considered that my last ditch maneuver, but I really doubt its effectiveness.

 

[Jeff Duda]

If there was any controversy--it appears to be no more. Here's the tornado safety guidelines direct from the NWS homepage:
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/severeweather/resources/ttl6-10.pdf
It identical to the Red Cross.

I think something that is missing from their tornado safety rules (look at page 12) is if you're caught outdoors and can't quickly walk to a shelter, get into a vehicle and FIRST try to get out of the path of the tornado. Your chances of survival go way up if you never intercept it in the first place. Only if you can't get out of the path of the tornado should you do the last two bullets. I understand that the average person may not know what the path of the tornado is or know how to drive out of it. Oh well. You take your chances either way if it gets to that point.

 

[Christina311]

I was told a few weeks ago that during some kind of tornado threat, Mike Bettes told people to "either drive away" or "stay in their vehicles." I need to make it clear I did not hear the statements myself and I do not know the circumstances that lead to such comments if true. Nor do I know if his personal experiences played played a part in the statements. This is not an attack on Bettes, but it draws attention to the overall subject.

He never said that. He did say that he thinks staying in car is sometimes a better choice than getting into a ditch, and mentioned his experience in El Reno (probably wouldn't have survived that in a ditch).

 

[Greg Campbell]

I suppose if I was about to get it, I think I'd stay buckled in inside my new SUV that probably has an OK roll cage. Unless the ditch had a culvert or a pipe you could crawl into... unless that was flooding... but either one would be a terrible option.

I'd agree. A car offers decent protection against weak tornadic winds, whether they come from an inherently weak tornado, or are encountered in the outer areas of a monster funnel. Once the winds become strong enough to roll the vehicle, a good plan becomes VERY difficult to find - stay in the car and risk getting wrapped around the nearest telephone pole, or go outside and be shredded / crushed by the large debris.

This quandary seems similar to the "Get underground or you'll die." advice we've heard lately. Even in a monster, the majority of homes affected will not see EF4+ winds. For Joe Sixpack, staying put and hoping for a little luck may well be preferable to jumping in the car and trying (and likely failing) to flee.

 

[Todd Rector]

It would be interesting for Mythbusters to tackle the idea of driving a car *into* a ditch to survive a tornado. I've always considered that my last ditch maneuver, but I really doubt its effectiveness.

I wonder if one could achieve greater relative safety by parking under a bridge, close to the concrete pillars - especially if there was a median wall. Despite recent revelations that wind under a bridge is accelerated, I believe a concrete barrier alongside a vehicle would provide partial protection from debris as well as possibly deflect or break up high winds. Of course there is never a bridge when you need one, and there is a high probability if a bridge were available there would already be a dozen cars under it seeking shelter.

For the record, if it really came down to it I would be driving through people's yards, farm fields, medians, highway shoulders, ANYTHING I had to do to get distance from a monster tornado. I doubt I would leave my vehicle under any condition unless it was to dive through a farmhouse window.

 

[rdale]

He never said that. He did say that he thinks staying in car is sometimes a better choice than getting into a ditch, and mentioned his experience in El Reno (probably wouldn't have survived that in a ditch).

During a Tornado Warning about a week ago, TWC's anchor (I really think it was Mike) specifically told residents of Sioux Falls to drive away from the storm since they had about a half-hour.

 

[Rob Wadsworth]

I suppose that the budget of some state's Dept of Public Safety (Texas; maybe?) can spring for the production of a 15 second cartoon/TV infomercial (since the FCC still requires so many hours of non-commercial public interest programming for license holders) in order of the idea of what to do/and not do - could be made to be understood in simplest terms. Other states could help defray the cost by using it with license.

I mean - how difficult could it be to make clear the idea that being in a vehicle is like choosing to stay in what essentially becomes a garbage compactor while in the throes of a powerful tornado?
Use Homer Simpson (universally recognizable character) to get their attention; maybe? Doh!
Groening could use the tax write-off.

Just some thoughts . . .

 

[John Farley]

Show me any research evidence from a referreed journal article that the ditch is a safer option. I've never seen any. In cases where the tornado is visible and its movement can be determined, simply drive out of the path. If it is really impossible to escape the tornado and it came down to sheltering in the car or getting in the ditch, I'd get as low in the car as possible with the seat belt fastened, and hopefully find something to cover my head. Getting hit by a tornado in a car or in a ditch are both bad options, but with a car you can usually drive out of the path if you can see the tornado. We all know cases of people that have been killed in cars, but there are also cases where people have gotten in the ditch and been killed by large objects landing on them when their cars ended up fine.

 

[Shane Adams]

The old rule, which has been around at least as long as I've been alive, is simply "drive towards the tornado at a right angle." Any tornado that's actually approaching your position, unless it's like a block away, will move left of you if you move towards it at a right angle. So simple even a muggle can do it.

 

[rdale]

I mean - how difficult could it be to make clear the idea that being in a vehicle is like choosing to stay in what essentially becomes a garbage compactor while in the throes of a powerful tornado?

That's not scientifically valid. For an EF5 - sure. But the ditch won't help you there either Schmidlin shows that in weaker tornadoes a car (especially with airbags) is okay.