"Rendering Aid"

[Kyle Soldani]

Fantastic post and perspective!

Here's an interesting perspective perhaps some of you may chime in on. For my rural agencies, we outfit vehicles in support of our EMS program. A basic trauma, BLS, MCI, AED, etc. kit is what I maintain in my vehicle. So, in Kansas I feel comfortable working within my scope with this equipment. Out of state I tend to shy away from full KS-EMT level care (not that I've been in the situation yet) and focus more on basic first-aid. My concern would be an incident in another state, and perhaps scope of practice differs from Kansas to the point I set myself up for more liability.

I'll pose two opinion questions and/or fact if you know:
1) Would you handle an out of state incident at your scope of practice? Being out of the state you are licensed.
2) IF you did in-fact handle an out of state incident at a lower scope of practice than you are trained, would that potentially open you up for civil/criminal liability if you didn't perform at your potential full scope?

 

[Steve Holmes]

Haven't listened to this Jason Pershoff clip yet, but I believe it was he on another clip who said do NOT move an injured survivor. There could be spinal damage a move would worsen.

Kyle, the questions about working out-of-state are important. Case in point: Joplin, MO in 2011. Joplin is eight miles from KS, ten miles from OK and 50 miles from AR. As a result, a lot of out-of-state medical pros wanted to rush to the rescue. I bet a lot of them practiced illegally that night. I know one was retroactively credentialed by a hospital. One thing state legislatures can do is remove any restrictions that could keep qualified out-of-state help from helping in an emergency.

 

[Kevin R Burgess]

Always take care of #1,first.
Than do what you can.

 

[James K]

but downed power lines are so dangerous and should be taken more seriously than anything in my opinion

I don't think some people realize the sort of power that can be in those lines. They're absolutely not something you want to f--- with.
In an 'ideal' situation, the power system would detect that there's a problem and de-energize any fallen lines. But we all know 'ideal' isn't reality so its not always going to happen.


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I think if I ever came upon storm devastation...
Sorry to say but I wouldn't be attempting to help (other than calling 911).
Fact is there's things you may come across, and you can't un-see things that you may not want to have seen.
I would really want nothing more than just get away from the area.
And deff no hanging around videoing someone's stuff destroyed (the camera would be staying turned off).

 

[Kevin R Burgess]

Always, be careful w/ the camera when in an area that has been effected by a 'nado that folks have been hurt.
It may come-up and bite you, in the future.

 

[Warren Faidley]

Most of these items should be carried regardless if you are chasing or not. Things like a fire extinguisher, flashlight, and reflective vest cover all kinds of problems you might encounter on the road, not just chasing. Surgical gloves are great of you need to fix something and the multi-tool has all kinds of uses. The overall list is intended for those who have some knowledge of first aid and are willing to render aid. The average first aid kit in a car is a joke. Not much you can do with bandaids and Tylenol.

 

[Kevin R Burgess]

KISS
Keep It Simple Stupid.
Grab what first aid materials you may have from home and don't worry what happens next. If something bad happens.

 

[Randy Denzer]

Fantastic post and perspective!

Here's an interesting perspective perhaps some of you may chime in on. For my rural agencies, we outfit vehicles in support of our EMS program. A basic trauma, BLS, MCI, AED, etc. kit is what I maintain in my vehicle. So, in Kansas I feel comfortable working within my scope with this equipment. Out of state I tend to shy away from full KS-EMT level care (not that I've been in the situation yet) and focus more on basic first-aid. My concern would be an incident in another state, and perhaps scope of practice differs from Kansas to the point I set myself up for more liability.

I'll pose two opinion questions and/or fact if you know:
1) Would you handle an out of state incident at your scope of practice? Being out of the state you are licensed.
2) IF you did in-fact handle an out of state incident at a lower scope of practice than you are trained, would that potentially open you up for civil/criminal liability if you didn't perform at your potential full scope?

1. I would handle any incident (in or Out of State) at my scope of practice. That is what I am covered for under the Good Samaratin laws.
2. You have to perform at your trained level. No more, no less

 

[Randy Denzer]

Haven't listened to this Jason Pershoff clip yet, but I believe it was he on another clip who said do NOT move an injured survivor. There could be spinal damage a move would worsen.

Kyle, the questions about working out-of-state are important. Case in point: Joplin, MO in 2011. Joplin is eight miles from KS, ten miles from OK and 50 miles from AR. As a result, a lot of out-of-state medical pros wanted to rush to the rescue. I bet a lot of them practiced illegally that night. I know one was retroactively credentialed by a hospital. One thing state legislatures can do is remove any restrictions that could keep qualified out-of-state help from helping in an emergency.

The Good Samaritan laws cover any trained or untrained person to work in any state. If you perform at your trained level in a disaster, you are not only doing the right thing, but your also covered.

 

[Pj Heckman]

The correct answer is: it depends. If you are a professional responder (ie licensed EMR, EMT-x, etc) good Samaritan’s laws generally do not apply if you are using your skills.

the laws (as a whole of the states who have them) cover the causal bystander who has no training in patient care but doing the best of their ability to help somone in need.

you have two choices: grab your kit and do what is within your scope of practice and do it correctly and correctly identify yourself as a trained EMT-x, or 2;

2: cover up all your ems/Fd stuff on the vehicle, your hat and play dumb and don’t do anything that shows you have more than Joe Citizen care.

All of the above can be thanked for by lawyers and practice from those injuried by certified persons trying to help but without proper equipment etc.

throwing out the national registry card does not help you either. You are either licensed or not in the “other” state and/or county/city depending on your locale.

Now I am not saying do not help someone who is in immediate danger and doing what any bystander would feel compelled to do, but in many cases, the injuries are not *that* severe that you cannot wait for a local responder. Again, your mileage may vary And just use common sense.

One local example, we had someone who wanted to help and seemed sorta legit, until he told us he had a first aid merit badge from the Boy Scouts. The person was pushing 55+ in age.

tourniquets can also be dangerous if not used correctly. There has been some debates and updates with several protocols and your local medical control or state app’s will dictate their use and extent (if any).

just be smart. The power line thing is very good people have a perception of them snapping around as live... you can have plenty of service and moderate voltage lines that will lay flat and be energized. This as well as automatic reclosures May renergize the line with no warning.

such happened to a neighboring fire department who had a FF killed with a “dead” line contacted his air bottle and killed him.

 

[Pj Heckman]

And of course, not absolute, but a fairly decent insight; Good Samaritan law - Wikipedia