Pics from INSIDE A Twister & Speculation of Appearance

Originally posted by Glen Romine
For a tornado to be effectively hollow - it would either have to have a ring of lower pressure with higher presure in the center (and that doesn't appear to be true), or different source regions for air in the center of the tornado than around it (or in other words, sinking air down the middle of the tornado vortex).
Glen
Click to expand...

What about the downdraft (theorized, yet I'm not sure if observed) that occurs in the center of the tornado, which is turns can lead to vortex breakdown? I suppose if this is the case for a particular tornado, there may be a glimmer of hope of getting a 'clear' view of the 'inside' of a tornado. Aside from this, I agree that, at ground level, the chances of seeing much is pretty much nil. I guess there's a chance of getting "inside" one of the double-sheath-type tornadoes... I remember a couple from the past few years, where there appeared to be two 'layers' of condensation tubes... EDIT: Something like the DeSmet tornado from 6-24-03 --> http://www.chaseday.com/PHOTOSHP/2003seaso...Dtornado-81.jpg (Gene Moore's pic).

Now, an upward pointed camera on an antenna tower (aka - "towercam")-- that's a different story. Of course, you'd have to have a mobile tower, since the chances of any particular antenna tower in tornado alley being hit dead-on by a tornado is likewise pretty miniscule.
 
Originally posted by Karen Rhoden
It's always interesting to speculate as to what may cause this type of extremely powerful, smooth-channelled, unbranched lightning bolt that sets off cannonball thunder. I have only ever seen it while watching tornadoes at the same time. And the frequency with which I do see it around tornadoes is very high.
Click to expand...

We had an interesting discussion about this on the lightning listserver. Dr. Richard Orville (a well-known lightning researcher and author) explained that the stepped leaders of positive CGs usually do not branch, while negative CGs exhibit branching.
 
One of the interesting things about that video to me is how 'dead still' those cameras remain as the tornado is roaring over the top of the probe. Somehow even when my video is tripoded in calm winds it ends up shaky. I think I would like to get one of Tim's probes for the roof of my chase vehicle ...
 
I freeze-framed bits of this clip and is that a combine wheel I see flying through the air???!!! It looks exactly like a John Deere combine front wheel thingy.
 
Originally posted by Karen Rhoden
It is a kind of smooth-channelled lightning that is rarely seen elsewhere in the storm or on other, non-tornadic storms.
Click to expand...

Interesting, but I'd have to disagree as I have about 40 pictures of similar strikes from this past year around NE KS that are like what you describe. None of these approximately 10 storms had any tornadic resemblence. Just an observation.

Lightning like that does seem boring in comparison to a multi-channeled bolt though doesn't it?

Tim (the other, other Tim)
 
Originally posted by Tim Stoecklein+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tim Stoecklein)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-Karen Rhoden
Click to expand...
It is a kind of smooth-channelled lightning that is rarely seen elsewhere in the storm or on other, non-tornadic storms.
Click to expand...

Interesting, but I'd have to disagree as I have about 40 pictures of similar strikes from this past year around NE KS that are like what you describe. None of these approximately 10 storms had any tornadic resemblence. Just an observation.

Lightning like that does seem boring in comparison to a multi-channeled bolt though doesn't it?

Tim (the other, other Tim)[/b]
Click to expand...

LOL - au contraire! Well......each to his own I guess, but I find that crazy smooth-channelled lightning quite spectacular!!! It's so strange and different.......I love seeing it every time. It just seems to powerful and primeval. I can't quite remember whether it is beaded or not but I don't think it is.......

Interesting that you've seen it associated with non-tornadic storms in general. I never have.

KR
 
Originally posted by Karen Rhoden
It just seems to powerful and primeval. I can't quite remember whether it is beaded or not but I don't think it is.......

Interesting that you've seen it associated with non-tornadic storms in general. I never have.
Click to expand...


We observed lightning such as you described on the evening of June 4th in the supercell that tracked from St. Joseph, Missouri to Jamesport. I have seen this before (Falls City, Neb supercell in 2002 comes to mind as well), but never to the extent we witnessed that evening. Your description is right on the money ... this was incredibly powerful and primeval (great word) ... this lightning was focused all around the mesocylone on a storm that was mature and became tornadic. The electrical system on my car was subsequently damaged after this chase, and has never been the same since, so we think that our vehicle picked up some electricity somewhere along the way. This lightning was like something out of a movie, and I regret not taking the time to get better video of it now. I won't get into another discussion of the relationships between tornadic storms and lightning (goodness knows we've had plenty), but this lightning was indeed different from the typical branched strokes encountered in other regions of a storm. There was plenty of electrical activity in the anvil and downdraft regions as well, but nothing like what we saw around the meso.
 
Interesting that you've seen it associated with non-tornadic storms in general. I never have.

KR
Click to expand...

I think your ratio of viewing tornadic vs non-tornadic is just too high then(if that is possible) ;).

02-07-26(8v).jpg


No tornado. It seems pretty darn normal to see them in non-tornadic storms.

I think most tornadic events I see I'm not noting any cgs. Most of them just seem to have the lightning activity in the tilted updraft. I think it is really cool when you have a highly tilted updraft which bubbles through the anvil and you hear a constant roar but see no cgs.....well maybe an occasional strike from the anvil.
 
Originally posted by Mike Hollingshead
I think most tornadic events I see I'm not noting any cgs.
Click to expand...

I generally agree with this ... only inasmuch as I don't believe in bonified correlation between the tornadic mechanisms in the storm and the electrical mechanisms (said I wouldn't get involved - oh well) ... these are two different storm processes I cannot see as being related, as they occur separate and apart from each other so often. Like you said, there are too many times when there is a tornado and no lightning whatsoever.

However - I am really interested in why this meso-associated lightning occurs so often --- I am thinking it probably has to do with the maturity of the storm and the formation and collision of ice particulates at specific levels around the storm's updraft. There must be a reasonable explanation, and this lightning that Karen describes is certainly unique and different from the lightning typically encountered in other regions of the storm.

(By the way - when I say it occurs "so often" ... that is relative. This is actually a rare occurrence that I've only seen less than a handful of times. Out of the '1 in 1000' storms that becomes a supercell, this probably happens in about '1 in 100' of those - both tornadic and non.)
 
Shane wrote:

I freeze-framed bits of this clip and is that a combine wheel I see flying through the air???!!! It looks exactly like a John Deere combine front wheel thingy.
Click to expand...


This lil' feature I missed several times until I stepped framed each view. It appears to be some sort of corn bin...a BIG corn bin One can only see it for just a few frames. I'll try to post a frame grab tonight. I might need somebody to post for me, as I don't really have a working website.

As far as being able to see _something_ in the center of the tornado from the ground, Glen makes some interesting points. I hold little hope that one can see from the ground in _most_ tornadoes due to the rapid pressure fluctuations near/within the corner region. I think there is a 1-3 meter thick cloud layer that is near/on the surface that will prevent good viewing. This may not be true with all tornadoes. Folks who've peered out their cellars/fraidy holes during tornado passage have indicated good visibility (Pampa tornado 1995). Not real sure of any scientific merit, but we're all interested..at least I am.

Perhaps during the spring of 2006? Keep your fingers crossed.

As far as lightning in general goes...stay tuned....I have some wild experiments planned for the summer of '06.

Tim

Oh, Shane....your Avatar freaks me out....
 
Originally posted by Mike Peregrine+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike Peregrine)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-Mike Hollingshead
Click to expand...
I think most tornadic events I see I'm not noting any cgs.
Click to expand...

I generally agree with this ... only inasmuch as I don't believe in bonified correlation between the tornadic mechanisms in the storm and the electrical mechanisms (said I wouldn't get involved - oh well) ... these are two different storm processes I cannot see as being related, as they occur separate and apart from each other so often. Like you said, there are too many times when there is a tornado and no lightning whatsoever.

However - I am really interested in why this meso-associated lightning occurs so often --- I am thinking it probably has to do with the maturity of the storm and the formation and collision of ice particulates at specific levels around the storm's updraft. There must be a reasonable explanation, and this lightning that Karen describes is certainly unique and different from the lightning typically encountered in other regions of the storm.[/b]
Click to expand...

I agree with you here Mike H, too. Thinking back to past tornadic events I have seen - I recall many major ones (06/23/02, 06/24/03, 05/22/04, 05/29/04) that are apparently devoid of all lightning memories as far as CGs are concerned. I agree that with many semi-tornadic or tornadic storms - there merely seems to be a profusion of intra-or-inter-cloud lightning and a distinct lack of CG activity.

Unlike Mike P - I'd love to get into a technical discussion - if I could LOL! I'm afraid I don't hold much technical knowledge - but I do enjoy speculating and exploring past events and experiences. It's all part and parcel to unravelling some of the mysteries still surrounding these amazing giants to me.

Yes this "snakelike" lightning is an interesting phenomena - at least for the likes of me (however misguided) who believe that it is a unique form of CG discharge that is separate from any other type we have seen. I'm glad I conveyed my impression of these bolts adequately so as Mike P knew what I was talking about - it's interesting to see he also felt the same way about them. They're just amazing - they seem to "slither" down from the meso area of a storm to connect with ground in an earth-shattering cannonball boom - and always directly underneath the meso/around the tornadic circulation.

I may have to try and find more video captures of them - we have plenty. Interestingly - we sit and pick out these types of bolts when watching other's highlights videos, too.

Originally posted by Mike Hollingshead
I think your ratio of viewing tornadic vs non-tornadic is just too high then(if that is possible) ;).

Click to expand...

8) I can't help it. But - if it's any consolation - I paid for it in 2005. :wink:

KR
 
Originally posted by Tim Samaras
As far as lightning in general goes...stay tuned....I have some wild experiments planned for the summer of '06.
Click to expand...

This should be interesting ... anxious to see what is in store for us in this department! ... As long as you do not wear a rubber suit and try to fry yourself with a Tesla Coil, I'll be waiting anxiously for the results-
 
Originally posted by Tim Samaras
Folks who've peered out their cellars/fraidy holes during tornado passage have indicated good visibility (Pampa tornado 1995). Not real sure of any scientific merit, but we're all interested..at least I am.
Click to expand...

I'm certainly interested as well - but as has been tossed around previously in the thread - I think you need an axial downdraft down the center of the tornado to make that possible, and if the downdraft somehow makes it all the way to the ground, I have to wonder how long such a situation could be sustained. Whether such a feature actually exists I don't think has been proven - but suggested based on some of the ideas swirling around. It very well could be that *some* tornadoes could exhibit this type of behavior during a phase of a tornado life cycle. In particular, the demise where the circulation simultaneously expands and weakens near the end of the tornado's life would warrant interest imo. The odds of getting a camera deployed at the right time and place to capture this are probably pretty slim - but if anyone can do it I wouldn't be surprised for Tim to be the first.

Glen
 
Glen:

I think the big mystery is how close is the vertical flow to the surface? I'm not so sure we know, until we have a good sample of data. Visual data suggests some vertical component is there only inches above the ground! Depends on local terrain/vegitation. Certainly is a player for possible visability from ground level to 1 meter or so.

I agree that the tornado life cycle may have a big influance on visibility due to weakening vertical flow near the ground.


Tim
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top