Shane Adams
So is insurance, but the law makes us carry that. Probably because storm shelters would cost money and forcing people to carry insurance makes money.
Oklahoma Inventors Create Innovative 'Tornado Lifejacket'
- Thread starter Warren Faidley
- Start date
So is insurance, but the law makes us carry that. Probably because storm shelters would cost money and forcing people to carry insurance makes money.
Joey Ketcham
EF4
I agree, I think it should be encouraged to build safe room's for all school's regardless of cost. It disturbs me that some would rather see a loss of lives than have a safe room built to save those lives just because it costs too much. I'm a bit biased since I work for the Joplin School district, which took a direct hit by a large tornado in 2011. After that tornado, our school district made sure the funds were there and built safe room's at most of the school's here. A tornado of that magnitude might not hit again for another 50 years, but at least there is a safe room available to save lives in case it happens sooner than that. I'd rather waste money on building safe room to protect people than sit back and watch people lose their life to a tornado that could have been saved if a safe room did exist.
rdale
EF5
There is no relationship between homeowners' insurance and school safe rooms. You get insurance because there is a likelihood of a fire or break-in and you want financial protection. In a school you are protected by sprinkler systems because you want life safety. You do not have meteor strike protection at school because the odds are too low. We shouldn't be paying to protect Oklahoma schools from tsunamis. Regarding your first post, I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny or just unaware, but the Joplin school district cannot pull money from the war in Iraq and use it for shelters, there is no connection between what the country spends on military and what a city spends on sheltering.
rdale
EF5
It disturbs me that people involved in school funding issues are spending money on the "risk of the day" instead of using facts to base their allocations. Tornadoes are not a significant risk for school children based on facts. You're letting emotions take control, and when that happens poor decisions often result.
If we had unlimited money then sure - build safe rooms. We don't. Every dollar going to safe rooms is a dollar lost for a teacher or for better technology and as a result for the next 50 years tens of thousands of children will enter their adult lives with less of a education than they could have had. Apostrophes everywhere are wincing
Shane Adams
911 happened once in our lifetimes, significantly less than the times Moore, OK has been struck by a damaging tornado. But how many millions have we wasted on Homeland Security? My comments aren't about the relationship (or lack therof) between local/federal spending, they're about the Big Picture observation that this country's monetary priorities are extremely skewed. If it involves rockets and tanks and killing people anywhere else on earth, we're cramping up from writing checks. We send resources all over the world when something bad happens ONCE, then rebuild that place and spare no expense making it more fortified for the next time. But when it comes to ourselves and protecting our own interests and people, we're penny pinchers. It's such an insane mindset.
I mean, when insurance companies can sue a homeowner who lost everything in a tornado, something's wrong at a basic human level. I'm not proposing a fix, because there isn't one. We are what we are: a failed experiment by Nature.
rdale
EF5
I think the confusion is that the "we" who spent billions on DHS are not the same "we" who allocate local dollars for education funding. Just because the money is being wasted because of 9/11 doesn't mean we should waste money because of Moore.
Greg Campbell
EF5
A powerful tornado is bearing down on the school your kid is attending. Which option would you prefer? Kid jumps into an admittedly ghetto underground metal box, or hunkers in the hallway and hopes for the best?
I don't understand your polarized, all-or-nothing thinking. Is a shelter only 'useful' if it's built like a missile silo and equipped with at least one espresso machine for each handicapped kid? (The 'California Standard.') Given the statistically low threat, perhaps a 'redneck' solution is entirely appropriate? "Accessibility Standards?" Screw that. Build a small safe room for the handful of disabled folks, and let the rest walk to safety in the Redneck Bunker.
JohnHuntington
EF1
Mythbusters did a "one person tornado shield" a while ago (with Reed and Sean)
Watch video >
Watch video >
TJKLECKNER
EF4
I'm all for the Redneck Bunker. I know all the red tape will get in the way, but when it comes to absolutely no shelter, I will take my chances in the Redneck Bunker.
Elaine Spencer
EF3
I don't understand your polarized, all-or-nothing thinking. Is a shelter only 'useful' if it's built like a missile silo
"Storm shelter" does NOT necessarily equal "underground concrete bunker used only during tornado warnings." They can be used for other purposes and can also serve as community shelters.
Here's an example:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mo...ouri-schools-build-tornado-safe-rooms-n107486
"The two tornado-safe rooms in Nixa, at Mathews Elementary School and Inman Intermediate School, just look like, and operate as, regular gyms.
“That’s honestly what freaks people out the most,” said Rantz. “They walk in and they don’t feel protected. They think a tornado-safe room needs to be underground.”....
"(The school principal) said building safety rooms in schools provides “more bang for your buck” because they can double or triple as other usable spaces (one of the gyms also has a stage for smaller performances).
"But these new constructions aren’t cheap—Nixa’s cost between $735,000 and $2.6 million—a FEMA grant pays for 75 percent of the price. Nixa paid the rest by selling bonds; in other area school districts, they’ve covered the cost by raising property taxes."
Note the last two sentences: there's also more than one way to fund construction of school shelters. FEMA grants can cover a good portion of the cost, and there are a variety of ways to fund the remaining cost. (If all else fails, a private fundraising drive might cover the last few thousand dollars or so.)
There are also ways to improve tornado safety in schools that don't cost ANY money:
"Nixa schools have also completely revamped their tornado drill procedures after examining surveillance footage from a Joplin high school during the 2011 twister. The standard procedure for years was duck-and-cover in the hall, but the footage showed a vending machine whipping through a hallway, which had become a wind tunnel. Luckily, no children were in its path—the twister hit on a Sunday.
“If there had been children in that school, it would have been absolutely devastating,” said Hawkins.
"The new drill procedure is to head straight for the FEMA safe rooms, or in schools that don’t have them yet, to take cover in interior classrooms or bathrooms (emphasis mine). Although there’s no state law mandating it, Nixa schools have decided to run these new drills four or five times during the school year."
"Storm shelter" does NOT necessarily equal "underground concrete bunker used only during tornado warnings." They can be used for other purposes and can also serve as community shelters.
Here's an example:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mo...ouri-schools-build-tornado-safe-rooms-n107486
"The two tornado-safe rooms in Nixa, at Mathews Elementary School and Inman Intermediate School, just look like, and operate as, regular gyms.
“That’s honestly what freaks people out the most,” said Rantz. “They walk in and they don’t feel protected. They think a tornado-safe room needs to be underground.”....
"(The school principal) said building safety rooms in schools provides “more bang for your buck” because they can double or triple as other usable spaces (one of the gyms also has a stage for smaller performances).
"But these new constructions aren’t cheap—Nixa’s cost between $735,000 and $2.6 million—a FEMA grant pays for 75 percent of the price. Nixa paid the rest by selling bonds; in other area school districts, they’ve covered the cost by raising property taxes."
Note the last two sentences: there's also more than one way to fund construction of school shelters. FEMA grants can cover a good portion of the cost, and there are a variety of ways to fund the remaining cost. (If all else fails, a private fundraising drive might cover the last few thousand dollars or so.)
There are also ways to improve tornado safety in schools that don't cost ANY money:
"Nixa schools have also completely revamped their tornado drill procedures after examining surveillance footage from a Joplin high school during the 2011 twister. The standard procedure for years was duck-and-cover in the hall, but the footage showed a vending machine whipping through a hallway, which had become a wind tunnel. Luckily, no children were in its path—the twister hit on a Sunday.
“If there had been children in that school, it would have been absolutely devastating,” said Hawkins.
"The new drill procedure is to head straight for the FEMA safe rooms, or in schools that don’t have them yet, to take cover in interior classrooms or bathrooms (emphasis mine). Although there’s no state law mandating it, Nixa schools have decided to run these new drills four or five times during the school year."
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Joey Ketcham
EF4
That's what they did here at the Joplin, MO school district, the safe room's were built with funds provided by FEMA and didn't come out of the district's funds. Not only are the a community shelter for the general public as well as for staff and students, the safe room's are also used as gymnasiums and other purposes.
Sean Mullen
EF2
From "A Guide to Developing a Severe Weather Emergency Plan for Schools" :
"The greatest threat from high winds (caused by tornado, hurricane, thunderstorm downburst, or a strong pressure surge behind a cold front) are -
1. roof failure
2. breaking glass, and
3. flying debris (airborne missiles)
"The most dangerous locations are generally large rooms with big expansive roofs such as cafeterias, gymnasiums, and auditoriums(emphasis mine). The collapse of the room's outer load-bearing wall can lead to the failure of the entire roof. Roofs tend to rely on gravity to keep them attached. When strong winds act on a structure, pressure differences are created causing outward pressures forces that act to lift the roof."
I assume the architects and engineers who designed these new school shelters were aware of the above. How do they change design to make these the safest areas rather than the most dangerous? Besides anchoring of the cement / steel walls 6 feet deep as described, what other measures are utilized?
Joey Ketcham
EF4
Hold on, let me put on my glasses so I can read that tiny little text.
There, better.
I don't know the answer to your questions, perhaps you should write the architects and engineers who designed them and ask them the question. Why would you ask me? I don't recall stating that I designed any safe rooms, lol.
Sean Mullen
EF2
Sorry about the tiny text; when I previewed the post it was the same size text as the rest.
The questions were not directed specifically to you. I quoted your post because it mentioned the safe rooms also being used for gymnasiums and other purposes, which jogged my memory about the guide for SWEP.
Joey Ketcham
EF4
I would imagine that they're designed and built differently than your standard gymnasium, not sure though. Wish Tim Marshall was more active on here as this is up his alley and could give us a better insight on this.
