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Non-supercell severe winds

Joined
Jan 7, 2008
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Location
Bryan, TX
I'm curious about people's experiences observing non-supercell tornados, as well as tornados that don't descend from a distinct wall cloud. So, what signs have people observed both on the ground and on radar of storms (besides a hook or bow echo) that are non-super cell and end up producing a tornado from perhaps the shelf cloud? What precursors have you noted before a microburst or a gustinado? At what point with a powerful gust front have you suspected and then realized, here come the potent straight-line winds (again, besides being near the greatest bowing on radar)?
 
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I'm curious about people's experiences observing non-supercell tornados. So, what signs have people observed both on the ground and on radar of storms (besides a hook or bow echo) that are non-super cell and end up producing a tornado from perhaps the shelf cloud?

The best example of this for me was June 1, 2007. I had been tracking an HP supercell, that despite being tornado-warned, was largely being undercut by cool outflow the majority of its life. Eventually it morphed into a line which then formed a gustfront, and I assumed the show was over (for tornadoes). Since I was already there, I stayed with it. I kept myself ahead of the main gustfront, and eventually noticed an area of localized, tight rotation on the leading edge. I stopped to document it, then kept going, thinking nothing of it (I'd seen it before). However the rotation persisted for the next few minutes and then I saw a dust swirl below it in a field west of me. By the time I got pulled over and stopped, it had dissipated....but the rotation persisted. I took off again, and not 30 seconds later, a second debris swirl shot up, this time much more intense. I pulled over and got out (hitting "pause" instead of "record" unfortunately). A ragged condensation funnel formed in the center of the rotation while the red dirt debris swirl churned in the field. It lasted about a minute, then slowly dissolved. All during the tornado my surface winds were from the southeast, just ahead of the wind shift line on the gust front. After the tornado dissipated, the rotation finally dissolved, as it was ripped apart by the gust front. Shortly after that, my winds shifted from the west and the show was over. So if you're on the nose of a gust front and you see noticeable, focused rotation, watch it closely. Because tornadoes can form there.


as well as tornadoes that don't descend from a distinct wall cloud.

The main thing about these is to not be fooled into dismissing the storm base just because there's no wall cloud. If it's a severe storm with supercell characteristics and the only thing missing is a classic wall cloud, it can still produce a tornado. The cloud base rotation can appear as "general turbulence" becasue you don't have the descended area to focus on (for the visual rotation) but a high base or wall cloud-free base that's rotating can still produce a tornado. As far as the cycle of events, it's pretty much the same as all classic supercell tornadoes, minus the distinct wall cloud.


What precursors have you noted before a microburst or a gustinado?

With microbursts it largely depends on the type: dry or wet. With a wet microburst, you see a bulging of the rain shaft in the area where the MB is originating; either side of the precip core will push outwards creating a "bulge" or "pooch" kind of look. It's actually quite fascinating to witness. However you'll need to be back away from the MB to notice this; if you're anywhere near it all you're gonna get is slammed with winds and rain. The precursor of a MB at close range is simply strengthening winds as it overtakes you. With a dry microburst it's dust you see instead of bulging rainshafts. Gustnadoes can form anywhere along a gust front with zero warning, so if you're near a GF just be mindful of gustnadoes. They (gustnadoes) can also form on the backside of RFDs, so if you're positioned on the back side of the RFD region be wary of them as well.


At what point with a powerful gust front have you suspected and then realized, here come the potent straight-line winds (again, besides being near the greatest bowing on radar)?

Gust fronts have a distinct visual appearance, and give plenty of lead-time warning for themselves. Typically in my experience, the "visual" part of the gust front will be nearly upon you before the serious winds hit (if they are any), so you'll have plenty of time to sit and enjoy it before it's time to bail (unless high winds are your thing). Usually you get a typical windshift a few minutes before the worst straight-line stuff hits you.

Hope this helps :-)
 
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Thanks Shane, those certainly are the sorts of answers I was hoping for, yet my curiosity persists, so here are a few followups :)

1. You mention here--"Typically in my experience, the "visual" part of the gust front will be nearly upon you before the serious winds hit (if they are any)"--so, are you referring to the shelf cloud specifically or something else in addition?

2. Regarding shelf clouds I've been told two opposing views: one, that you can't conclude from an intimidating shelf cloud that there will be high winds, two, that yes, you can, that the more organized and striated and impressive generally the shelf cloud is the greater the chance of having some potent straight-line winds coming up and that the height off the ground of the ridges/striations in it might make a difference and how high into the storm that organization proceeds

3. Are RFD cuts perceptible in multi-cell storms? And does one expect RFD winds exactly when one is in the clearer scoured out area, or a bit before and after? Should one generally take the presence of that appearance of lightened cloud or even sky and sunlight peeking through with an RFD cut to indicate stronger RFD winds?

4. How will a gustinado first manifest itself? Will you see a rotating in the cloud above you followed by a gust without any condensation funnel ever? Or might there be a slight funnel sometimes? And would the funnel come after the winds have already been established on the ground?

5. What are the thresholds for you as the chase or spotter to modify your behavior in terms of safety with these severe winds as well as stimulating you to pick a different part of the storm to chase? Generallly everyone tends to give up on a storm "lining out" into a linear gust front as you mentioned above and yet there was that tornado that emerged as you describe from "tight rotation on the leading edge" of the gust front. Did a shelf cloud identify this "leading edge" or were there other features there? After this experience, are you more reluctant to give up on a storm?


6[Ok, I crammed a lot in #5 there] Here you mention awaiting the show, if one chooses, of the gust front's severe winds. What's the highest you'd consider safe for standing in vs. driving in? Doesn't the human body tend to go airborne around 120 or so? And by 90-100 can't one get knocked down? Assuming there aren't trees right nearby or powerlines, where would you advocate drawing the line? (And at what point might you consider lying down on the ground to avoid being picked up or thrown around) [Sorry if this starts to seem silly, but I would like to know some of these precise thresholds]
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Typically in my experience, the "visual" part of the gust front will be nearly upon you before the serious winds hit (if they are any), so you'll have plenty of time to sit and enjoy it before it's time to bail (unless high winds are your thing
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7. How much do you trust your estimate of non-supercell tornados in terms of their power and damage potential while witnessing them away from objects? So, for example, if you're witnessing what will later be classifed anything from an EF-0 to an EF-3 out in a field, are there some particular cues?

8. With a multi-cell severe storm, does one sometimes encounter visually more than one wall cloud at the same time?

9. If there are any pictures or videos that illustrate some of the examples Shane has brought up or other explanations people might add, pictures would be very useful. For example, "here's a shot of the leading edge of the front, here's a pic of the rotation that started," etc.

Thanks again Shane!
 
You mention here--"Typically in my experience, the "visual" part of the gust front will be nearly upon you before the serious winds hit (if they are any)"--so, are you referring to the shelf cloud specifically or something else in addition?

I should've described this in my original reply, but it's basically the shelf cloud you mention. I kind of think of it as a wide "arrow" because visually, both ends of it seem to taper down into a point...maybe "wing" is a better word than arrow, but yeah you've basically got the point.


Regarding shelf clouds I've been told two opposing views: one, that you can't conclude from an intimidating shelf cloud that there will be high winds, two, that yes, you can, that the more organizedand striated and impressive generally the shelf cloud is the greater the chance of having some potent straight-line winds coming up and that the height off the ground of the ridges/striations in it might make a difference and how high into the storm that organization proceeds

Both answers seem reasonable, but as with all things weather, you can never depend on either LOL. I've seen a lot of impressive gust fronts visually that didn't even produce severe winds (58mph or greater) let alone really intense severe winds. On the other hand, the visual structure of a gust front (as with any visual part of a storm) can be clues to its nature. The easiest way to decide what type of winds you'll be dealing with is to monitor weather radio and keep track of warnings and any reports from anyone who may have already experienced the GF passage. The high winds in a gust front are not always neatly "packaged" and there may be smaller pockets of really intense winds within the overall severe windfield.


Are RFD cuts perceptible in multi-cell storms? And does one expect RFD winds exactly when one is in the clearer scoured out area, or a bit before and after? Should one generally take the presence of that appearance of lightened cloud or even sky and sunlight peeking through with an RFD cut to indicate stronger RFD winds?

I can't say for sure either way about the multi-cell RFD cut, I've honestly never thought about it. Theoretically it would seem that any RFD would be noticeable because it erodes cloud material, but then the multi-cell structure lends itself to competing updrafts, which are always in the cycle of building and dying, and this would (IMO) seem to preclude any chance of a significant RFD occurring (because RFDs co-exist with single, dominating updrafts). These ideas may be completely wrong, as I've never really considered this. Excellent question, perhaps someone more schooled can answer this.

One should expect to experience RFD winds when they are immediately south of the RFD region, i.e. SE/S/SW. Generally all storms move north or east so the RFD wrap descends upon the southern portion of the updraft (backside). You need to be fairly close to the RFD region (within a mile or less) to feel the effects of it, and really close to actually be in danger of high winds. (It's important to note that the RFD region is separate from the tornado itself; you can be a safe distance from the tornado but still be in the direct path of an intense RFD punch...which can sometimes be worse than the tornado).

Usually if you can see the RFD clearly, you're far enough back to where you won't feel it too intensely. But if you're positioned south (or on the backside relative to the storm's forward motion) of a close tornado, you will begin to feel RFD effects as the tornado moves by, and again, these can be worse than the tornado itself. If you're close enough to be in danger from RFD winds, visual clues no longer apply; you need to be aware of your position relative to the tornado.


How will a gustinado first manifest itself? Will you see a rotating in the cloud above you followed by a gust without any condensation funnel ever? Or might there be a slight funnel sometimes? And would the funnel come after the winds have already been established on the ground?

To be a true gustnado, the surface circulation can not be connected to the cloud base; gustnado "spin" is generated by inflow/outflow interactions along gust fronts. Typically gustnadoes form within a concentrated area of dust, kicked out by the storm's outflow, or along a gust front. Sometimes you will see gustnadoes develop in the clear, alone, with only the circulation itself visible, no other dirt is seen. These are often mistaken as tornadoes.

However, as I mentioned in my first reply, there are situations where the inflow/outflow interface can generate cloud base rotation along a gustfront, and produce a tornado. Granted, the circulations within these type of circulations/tornadoes is certainly not "deep", but it's convective and extends to the ground and is, by definition, a tornado.


What are the thresholds for you as the chase or spotter to modify your behavior in terms of safety with these severe winds as well as stimulating you to pick a different part of the storm to chase? Generallly everyone tends to give up on a storm "lining out" into a linear gust front as you mentioned above and yet there was that tornado that emerged as you describe from "tight rotation on the leading edge" of the gust front. Did a shelf cloud identify this "leading edge" or were there other features there? After this experience, are you more reluctant to give up on a storm?

My general threshold for abandoning a storm or not is "do I think this can produce a tornado?" As long as the answer is "yes" I will stay with the storm. When I feel a storm is losing its supercellular characteristics I will abandon it immediately, unless there is no other game in town (as on June 1, 2007). There really wasn't any visual clue about this gust front rotation except the rotation itself; it appeared as a typical gust front but on the nose of it there was this vigorous cloud swirl where the rotation was concentrated. I do not believe that my chances of seeing a tornado from this type of storm/structure are nearly as high as from a typical supercell; I consider 6-1-07 to be the exception not the rule, and it's a shame I botched getting it on video.


What's the highest you'd consider safe for standing in vs. driving in? Doesn't the human body tend to go airborne around 120 or so? And by 90-100 can't one get knocked down? Assuming there aren't trees right nearby or powerlines, where would you advocate drawing the line? (And at what point might you consider lying down on the ground to avoid being picked up or thrown around) [Sorry if this starts to seem silly, but I would like to know some of these precise thresholds]

I would not advise standing outside in severe winds ever, regardless of the speed. Being knocked down is the least of your worries in high winds; airborne debris can seriously injure you, even in "low end" severe winds. Now as far as being inside a vehicle, if there are no trees or powerlines around, I'd say go for it. With nothing around for the wind to bring down on you, the only worry you really have is the wind itself. I've been in sustained winds around 100mph, with a gust to around 125mph. The 100mph winds pushed our small truck (extended cab Toyota) across dry pavement about a foot, and the 125mph gust at the end lifted the rear tires off the ground briefly and pushed the back end sideways a few feet. That was one time in almost 12 years. The typical severe thunderstorm rarely produces winds of that magnitude for that duration, so I'd say it's very unlikely you'll encounter thunderstorm winds strong enough to flip a vehicle.


How much do you trust your estimate of non-supercell tornados in terms of their power and damage potential while witnessing them away from objects? So, for example, if you're witnessing what will later be classifed anything from an EF-0 to an EF-3 out in a field, are there some particular cues?

Typically the tornadoes I've seen along gust fronts are weak, you could probably stand through one if you had something to hold onto. Visually estimating tornado windspeeds is subjective, and is "picked up" over time.


With a multi-cell severe storm, does one sometimes encounter visually more than one wall cloud at the same time?

Again, I've never really thought about this, as I typically don't chase multi-cell storms. But with multiple updrafts, the potential for multiple wall clouds seems reasonable.
 
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Thanks for the elaboration Shane. By the way, I checked out your site, and you've got a good storytelling style--maybe you'll write an entire book about your path to being a stormchaser? Some pretty funny (and of course frustrating) bad luck you had along the way before it all came together. Someone should do a storm chasing cartoon or comic also, just seems like there are interesting opportunities for comedy and vivid art too.
 
you can be a safe distance from the tornado but still be in the direct path of an intense RFD punch...which can sometimes be worse than the tornado).

Can you elaborate on this? How often are RFD's this intense? Would the same be true of FFD's? Thanks.
 
Can you elaborate on this? How often are RFD's this intense? Would the same be true of FFD's? Thanks.

I can't say for sure. The most damaging RFDs I've personally experienced (be it the actual winds or just the damage that occurred) were associated with F2 or greater tornadoes. From other videos I've seen, the RFD surge seemed to be more severe the stronger the tornado was. But because the RFD is partly responsible for bringing the tornadic circulation to the ground (several people believe anyway) it would make sense to assume the stronger the tornado, the stronger the RFD...or vice versa.

As far as FFDs, I have no real up-close experience with these, as they are typically not the area where tornadoes will form (in classic supercells). High-precipitation supercells (HPs) often produce tornadoes in the FFD region, but getting close enough to feel the effects is dangerous and not highly-sought after; the viewable window for HP FFD tornadoes is small to begin with, and as Gene mentioned in an earlier post, some of the largest hail you can find will occur within this region, making it a dangerous place to try and get close to.

I hope this helps a bit, though I think others could explain it further.
 
How intense/dangerous can an RFD be from a non-tornadic supercell? Should RFD's always be avoided if possible?
 
How intense/dangerous can an RFD be from a non-tornadic supercell? Should RFD's always be avoided if possible?

This is like the straight-line wind questions posed a few days ago: it depends greatly on what there is around you to be carried/toppled by intense winds. Not all strong/intense RFDs produce tornadoes, yet they still manifest themselves at the ground in the form of intense winds. Anything (such as power poles, trees, billboards) around you susceptible to wind damage can become a hazard around an RFD, with or without a tornado. Again, like the straight-line wind thread, avoiding RFD bursts or not depends on personal choice. Some chasers love being in high winds, others do not. As long as there's nothing around to become debris (that might try to become part of you) I see no major issue with riding an RFD out once in a while. However, RFDs are very localized events, and it's impossible to know exactly how powerful they might be (I've under-estimated them before and it wasn't pretty). I'd suggest avoiding them altogether, unless high winds are your thing.
 
Regarding the 140 mph EF-3 tornado that hit Peachtree, Georgia, Dr. Greg Forbes on the weather channel just explained that it was the "rotating head" of a bow echo, and that he has even seen an "F4" tornado with this type of rotating section of a bow echo. I wonder given the new EF system, whether he actually meant an EF-4; regardless, does anybody know what example he might have been thinking of for the F4 or EF-4 tornados in the past that were non supercell "rotating head(s)" of bow echoes? Also, those sure are powerful tornados for a non-supercell, eh?
 
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and here's the specifics from the storm reports, so Peachtree was the closest town to the EF3 that Dr. Greg Forbes was talking about but there was also an EF-1 near Carollton:

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PUBLIC INFORMATION STATEMENT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE PEACHTREE CITY GA
825 PM EST TUE FEB 26 2008

...PRELIMINARY REPORT FOR 26 FEBRUARY CARROLL COUNTY TORNADOES...

TORNADO #1
A DAMAGE SURVEY TEAM FROM THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE FORECAST
OFFICE IN PEACHTREE CITY HAS CONFIRMED THAT AN EF3 TORNADO TOUCHED
DOWN IN WESTERN CARROLL COUNTY AROUND 555 AM.

THE TORNADO TOUCHED DOWN NEAR THE ALABAMA STATE LINE ABOUT 13
MILES WEST OF CARROLLTON AND TRAVELED TO A POINT ABOUT 5 MILES
WEST OF CARROLLTON. THE TORNADO PATH LENGTH WAS 8 MILES LONG WITH
A MAXIMUM PATH WIDTH OF 100 YARDS. MAXIMUM WIND SPEEDS WERE
ESTIMATED NEAR 140 MPH. A TOTAL OF 12 STRUCTURES WERE DAMAGED OR
DESTROYED ALONG THE PATH OF THIS TORNADO...MOST SINGLE FAMILY HOMES.
ONLY FOUR THESE STRUCTURES WERE MOBILE HOMES. ONE INJURY WAS
REPORTED AT A HOME THAT WAS COMPLETELY DESTROYED IN THE 1200 BLOCK
OF INDIAN CREEK ROAD.

TORNADO #2
THE DAMAGE SURVEY TEAM FOUND AN EF1 TORNADO EAST OF CARROLLTON. THIS
TORNADO BEGAN 3 MILES EAST OF CARROLLTON AROUND 610 AM AND ENDED 5
MILES EAST OF CARROLLTON. THE MAXIMUM WIDTH WAS 100 YARDS WIDE WITH
MAXIMUM WINDS SPEEDS OF 90 MPH. A TOTAL OF 24 STRUCTURES RECEIVED
MINOR DAMAGE...PRIMARILY SIDING AND ROOF DAMAGE TO HOMES. ONE INJURY
OCCURRED ABOUT 4 MILES EAST OF CARROLLTON WHEN A MOTORIST WAS
IMPACTED BY A TREE BRANCH THAT STRUCK HIS VEHICLE.

ADDITIONAL DETAILS WILL BE FORTHCOMING CONCERNING THIS AND DAMAGE
REPORTED FROM OTHER AREAS IN NORTH AND CENTRAL GEORGIA FROM THE
STRONG THUNDERSTORMS THAT MOVED ACROSS NORTH AND CENTRAL GEORGIA
TUESDAY.
 
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Rarely RFD winds associated with a tornadic mesocyclone can be responsible for a "blow down." That is, an area where trees are flattened for many miles or a couple of counties. In the cases I've seen, one I was caught in, this started after the main tornadic event dissipated. In HP supercells that area is often associated with wet-down bursts, but can occur in more classic supercell stages. This would be sustained winds over 100-120 MPH. Sometimes these down bursts occur sporadically during the tornado and you can later see the evidence if you walk a damage path through a wooded area, or a (tall) wheat field. A few researchers have speculated that this occurrence may be responsible for extremely wide damage paths. There is much evidence to suggest all tornadic mesocyclones have some degree of RFD wind, but most of the time it's spread out over a large region south of the tornado. In the intense cases it appears that the RFD winds are more channeled down and around the mesocyclone.

Regardless, it's not wise to get caught in one of these RFD blasts. That said, we're in the age of debris cloud video chasing so the mention that getting too close might yield problems... is pretty much pointless. If you're concerned about this and the risk of getting the vehicle rolled; be aware the south side of the tornado cyclone is the most prone. Also, it can extend out for 1-2 miles.
 
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