Legislation to Create a National Disaster Review Board

Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
618
Location
Wichita
I have what I hope everyone will agree is good news regarding the Natural Disaster Review Board.

Representatives Katie Porter (D-CA) and Sandy Mace (R-SC) have introduced the Natural Disaster Safety Board Act which passed the full House in 2022. Companion legislation was introduced in the Senate in November by Senators Brian Schatz and Bill Cassidy. I just became aware of the latter yesterday.

The legislation will create a NDSA modeled after the National Transportation Safety Board which has been amazingly successful making aviation incredibly safe. It has been 15 years (!) since there has been a crash involving a major airliner.

We desperately need a similar entity for natural disasters.

If you agree, please use the easy "contact" page (sample below) on your senators' and representative's home page.

Thank you,

Mike Smith
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot 2024-01-23 at 4.19.17 PM.png
    Screenshot 2024-01-23 at 4.19.17 PM.png
    154.7 KB · Views: 4
I know you've been pushing for this for quite some time, so I'm glad to see it's getting some traction. While I'm typically in favor of less govt, I think this is a great idea if implemented similar to the NTSB. There's definitely a lot of lessons to be learned and applied from the shortcomings of previous disaster responses.
 
Mark, I am a Reagan (small government) conservative. Increasing government goes against my every fibre. But, when you look at the Maui Wildfire response, you see a national disgrace. We, as a society, cannot keep doing this (making ever worse disaster responses). So, I'm making an exception. We need a NDRB.
 
Mark, I am a Reagan (small government) conservative. Increasing government goes against my every fibre. But, when you look at the Maui Wildfire response, you see a national disgrace. We, as a society, cannot keep doing this (making ever worse disaster responses). So, I'm making an exception. We need a NDRB.
I agree. Given the coordination between federal agencies that will be required, I think this falls squarely in the purview of the federal government.

I do have some concerns; for example, about the stated scope of the "natural hazards" in H.R. 6450 and how it modifies the "natural hazards" definition in 42 U.S.C. 5122. This agency will probably grow very large, very quickly. However, I don't see a way to address the stated purpose and remain "small-government" small. (Aside: anyone know how large is the NTSB? That will be a basis for comparison.)

Regardless: it's needed and I will certainly contact my federal reps to urge its passage.
 
Related but slightly-off topic:

About once a decade someone, usually an academic, will start an unfounded controversy pertaining to the available of "free" weather information. The last one had to do with the poorly reported on Santorum Bill which insured the availability of NWS data and storm warnings when the media reporting said just the opposite. (reporters almost never read the actual language of a bill before the House or Senate).

Before this next one goes very far, here's my rebuttal:
One Less Thing to Be Concerned About

Let me know if you questions.
 
Related but slightly-off topic:

About once a decade someone, usually an academic, will start an unfounded controversy pertaining to the available of "free" weather information. The last one had to do with the poorly reported on Santorum Bill which insured the availability of NWS data and storm warnings when the media reporting said just the opposite. (reporters almost never read the actual language of a bill before the House or Senate).

Before this next one goes very far, here's my rebuttal:
One Less Thing to Be Concerned About

Let me know if you questions.
I remember the Santorum bill--it caused quite a stir due to the potential that:

"The NWS could be prohibited from providing a product or service unless the private sector was found to be unwilling or unable to provide it, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF (emphasis mine) 'preparation and issuance of severe weather forecasts and warnings designed for the protection of life and property of the general public.'"

Here, I have combined paragraphs (a)(1) and (b) of S.786 (1st Session, 109th Congress) into an English-language sentence. As @Mike Smith pointed out, this would have left responsibility for forecasts and warnings with the NWS and perhaps off-loaded some of the fluff injected by various administrations in the NWS mission. Possibly.

BUT: Santorum's bill language was too vague, with too much potential for unintended consequences.
Here's a quote to keep in mind when writing reading legislation:


"The use of indefinite or flexible terms in the grant of official powers means the grant of discretionary powers."
Ernst Freund, 30 Yale Law Journal 437 (1921)​

"Discretionary power" gives government officials the opportunity to substitute their judgment for the legislative intent. It assumes a Utopian view of government: that government will never do harm to the people. Unfortunately, Utopia cannot be governed by men; it can only be governed by angels.

It remains a mystery how a purported conservative like Santorum ever thought such a poorly-worded bill was a good idea.

Now I guess I am off on a tangent that @Mike Smith Smith probably never intended (sorry, Mike.) Bringing myself back: I really don't care about the exodus of intellectuals to private climate science firms. I'm more interested in why, suddenly, there is so much private money in climate research.
 
Geoff, that's fine.

From where did the language for the Santorum Bill come? It was absolutely verbatim the approved policy of the NWS toward private sector meteorology that had been approved by both the NWS and the Office of Management and Budget. No one thought it would be controversial since it was -- supposedly -- the way the NWS had been operating for years.

What caused the push to condify it into law was the NWS was, increasingly, violating its own policy. They started making specific products for electric companies, railroads down to the milepost (remember, RR's are private companies), etc., etc. that directly competed with us. Worse, they were badly neglecting their core mission: everyone forgets that during the terrible tornado outbreak of May 3, 1999, the WSR-88's at Frederick, Tulsa and Wichita were all down! And, at the time, no private sector organization had access to the TDWR's. Now, the even worst part: for about 5 minutes around 5 pm the OKC -88 went down. They were afraid they would not have been able to bring it up. That would have been a catastrophe!

Also, several colleges were starting commercial weather companies (as OU eventually did) and were using data sets that the NWS made available to them that were not available to us.

So, what we were attempting to do was focus the NWS on (free) data collection and distribution to everyone, forecasts for the public and warnings for the public.

Frankly, I think that is a good template for the NWS today.

As to the $$$ in climate is that big companies think that with AI and other post-processing capabilities they will be able to forecast climate and clean up. I'm highly skeptical but you what P.T. Barnum said....
 
Geoff, that's fine.

From where did the language for the Santorum Bill come? It was absolutely verbatim the approved policy of the NWS toward private sector meteorology that had been approved by both the NWS and the Office of Management and Budget. No one thought it would be controversial since it was -- supposedly -- the way the NWS had been operating for years.

What caused the push to condify it into law was the NWS was, increasingly, violating its own policy. They started making specific products for electric companies, railroads down to the milepost (remember, RR's are private companies), etc., etc. that directly competed with us. Worse, they were badly neglecting their core mission: everyone forgets that during the terrible tornado outbreak of May 3, 1999, the WSR-88's at Frederick, Tulsa and Wichita were all down! And, at the time, no private sector organization had access to the TDWR's. Now, the even worst part: for about 5 minutes around 5 pm the OKC -88 went down. They were afraid they would not have been able to bring it up. That would have been a catastrophe!

Also, several colleges were starting commercial weather companies (as OU eventually did) and were using data sets that the NWS made available to them that were not available to us.

So, what we were attempting to do was focus the NWS on (free) data collection and distribution to everyone, forecasts for the public and warnings for the public.

Frankly, I think that is a good template for the NWS today.

As to the $$$ in climate is that big companies think that with AI and other post-processing capabilities they will be able to forecast climate and clean up. I'm highly skeptical but you what P.T. Barnum said....
@Mike Smith I apologize if my undiplomatic language offended you--it sounds like you were part of the bill drafting process on the non-legislative end. But I cannot apologize for the sentiment behind my inartful speech.

That sentiment is: legislation needs to be carefully worded to avoid unintended consequences. Now knowing that the proposed law was essentially the agency policy, the nature of language in S.768 makes more sense. However: legislation drives policy, not the other way around.

I actually don't see how S.768 would have fixed some of the issues you mentioned: internal violations of policy, cronyism, improper utilization of resources (poor infrastructure maintenance, etc.) Those are all administrative failures and, short of the President or Secretary of Commerce doing their jobs and fixing the failures, the role of the legislature should be to improve whatever enabling legislation created the agency. Effectively, to put in guardrails and force the agency to perform its statutory role.

We're facing that right now in OK. When the administrative state will not act to fix problems, the legislature needs to step in and "firm up" statutory language to force the fix. The legislature does not want to fiddle with language it has already passed: preferable would be that the administrative state enforce the legislative intent using the authority it already has, but whatever it takes....
 
Geoff, I'm not offended in any way.

Unfortunately, getting a bill passed into law only mildly resembles what were learned in civics class. For example, if you chance just one word, it has to go back to NOAA and to the Office of Management and Budget for evaluation, which takes months if not longer.

More than ten years ago, I came up with the idea for a National Disaster Review Board (see: It is Time for a National Disaster Review Board, Part I ). I have been spending ridiculous amounts of time on it and I've received no renumeration whatsoever. I'm doing it because I believe it is something our nation desperately needs.

So, eleven years later, we now have a bill before both houses of Congress. Given that it is an election year, I would rate the odds of it passing this year as less than 50/50 but I certainly hope I am wrong.

The reason the original language of the NOAA policy in the Santorum Bill may have worked is that when the NWS's regional climate centers (which no longer exist in the form they did at that time) create an electric utility product that looks almost identical to AccuWeather's, we could have gone to court and gotten an injunction against the NWS to stop duplicating our products and giving them away free.

I was the chair of the lobbying committee of the Commercial Weather Services Association for seven years. The sausage of lawmaking is not pretty and requires great persistence and morality or you can get sucked under.

When we can get the bill now before Congress amended (it has a couple of major flaws), I'll let you know and I'd appreciate everyone's support by contacting their congresspeople.
 
While a NDRB would solve some problems, I really don't think it would do as much as "advertised." I have included some discussion below.

First off, a Google search says the NTSB has approximately 400 employees. While that may not be 100% accurate, it can provide a starting point for the discussion.

We would have to think that a new agency just starting out would not have that many employees. Or, would NWS be required to give up some of its employees or funds to start the NDRB? It's a question worth asking, as we see examples of horse-trading all the time in Congress. ("I'll only give you this if you are willing to give up that.")

With a (relatively) small number of employees, a NDRB would not be able to check or verify every tornado warning, much less all the severe thunderstorm, flash flood, and winter storm warnings. What is to be done when a storm (or maybe it was a tornado) causes damage and the public, emergency managers, and news media want to know which it was? Will they be satisfied to wait a few days or more for an answer until an NDRB person can make it to the scene? And how much evidence will be gone/cleaned up before the person can get there? Demolition of many badly damaged houses in Vilonia, Arkansas, was well under way two days after the tornado occurred. I can recall cases where most of the damage was gone within ONE DAY after a storm or tornado occurred in a fairly small, rural area. And, remember, the NTSB does not allow any of the "parties" to one of their investigations to release information to the news media. If NDRB is modeled after NTSB, after a big storm occurs NWS will not be able to give media interviews or go over radar data with the news media. So sorry, but the media will just have to wait a few days until someone from NDRB can make it to the scene.

Under special Department of Commerce rules, any NWS employee can give an interview to the news media (though this could be limited by local rules) as long as they stick to the current or past weather or the forecast (i.e., no discussion of things like the President's budget or similar topics). NTSB doesn't allow any such thing.

Also keep in mind that NTSB must "investigate" every aircraft accident, whether they even go to the scene or not. For some of the "smaller" events, only an FAA person goes to the scene (as they note in some of the their NTSB Newsroom posts). And NTSB certainly does not go to or "investigate" every fatal car accident. If NDRB does not go to a damage scene which might have been a severe thunderstorm but might have been a tornado, how are statistics going to be compiled on Lead Time, False Alarm Ratio, and Probability of Detection? (Yes, I know the system is not anywhere near perfect as it is. Some NWS offices will take the word of an emergency manager, whether that person has any training in surveying damage or not.)

Next question: Who is going to compile and publish Storm Data? If NDRB doesn't go to questionable scenes, who makes the call? Right now, entries for Storm Data are supposed to be submitted two months after the end of a given month (Example: Each office is supposed to send in Storm Data for January by the end of March. (That deadline is not always met, and there have to be some exceptions like for Hurricane Katrina.)
But let's remember that NTSB says their investigations may take 12 to 18 months and they don't always finish in that time. Do we want to model NDRB after this part of NTSB?

And let's discuss a topic that Mike Smith has expounded on. What is to be done when there is controversy over whether a tornado warning should have been issued and/or the time it was issued? As noted above, there is no guarantee that a NDRB person would even go to the scene if it's a "minor" event (what *might* have been an EF0 or EF1 tornado with no fatalities). And how long does NDRB get to study the matter? Hopefully not the 12 to 18 months cited in the previous paragraph, as the time for any hoped-for corrective action would have long-since dwindled by then.

Darn. Maybe I should have put "tl;dr" at the beginning of this essay. Suffice it to say, I've given this a lot of thought since Mike brought up this idea and I'm sure I've left out some things that I have considered in the past. In the NWS, I did storm surveys for more than 20 years. Also, I worked on the Directive that spelled out how to compile and write Storm Data entries (a person in NWS HQ was, of course, the leader of these efforts and I was one of two field office meteorologists who was picked to work on writing these "rules" that NWS offices had to follow). The last of these Directives that I worked on before retirement was more than 100 pages long, so every update was a massive undertaking that required plenty of work at home. I also compiled the local severe weather statistics for the office that I worked in. (The Meteorologist in Charge was not necessarily always happy with the storm surveys that I did or the severe weather scores that I compiled, but I was going to do things honestly, no matter what. And I never got overruled, either.)

I just hope that the issues (and potential pitfalls) that I cited will be taken into account if a NDRB comes to pass.

I'll say only one more thing here -- about radar outages. Since the WSR-88Ds were installed, they have been updated a number of times. This is fortunate since they are already at the end of their originally-expected lifespans. Like any piece of electronics gear, failure can occur unexpectedly, no matter how much routine maintenance is done. The bull gear failed on the radar at the office where I worked. It was the first in the nation to fail. For those that are not aware, the big, expensive parts, like the klystron, are not kept at local offices. When there is a failure, the part has to be flown in from Norman or Kansas City. This obviously leads to outages that lasted longer than we wanted. The flights often arrived in the evening and a courier service delivered the part to the office, no matter what time of night it was. And the shift leader then called an Electronics Technician(s) to come to the office at night to install the part. In our case, there was an Air Force Base that was also using the radar, so there was even more urgency to get it fixed.
 
Hi John,

I think if you read the legislation, you will feel better about the NDRB. The NWS and NDRB are completely separate organizations.

NDRB will be an independent agency like the NTSB. It will not be part of Commerce, NWS or any other part of government. The budgets are completely separate from NOAA and NWS.

The bill provides for, and gives budget to, regional offices if the NDRB wishes to have them. The budgets for the first three years are already in the bills but they can be changed. The regional offices would be involved in the verification process. Not every storm will require a site visit for verification just like every plane crash does not get a visit from the NTSB. But, if you take a photo of a tornado that is time/date stamped and send it to the NDRB, it will probably make it into the stats. Now, if the office failed to issue a warning, they sometimes fail to put it into Storm Data. That's why we need an independent organization doing that job, sometime even the National Academy of Sciences has recognized and recommended since 2012.

The NWS can continue to say whatever it wants to say. NDRB has nothing to do with the management of the NWS.

As I mentioned, there are a number of amendments that I would like to see made. I don't feel it is appropriate to share them here but look at the bill and you will probably be able to figure them out.

Mike
 
Mike,

I hope you realize that the NTSB, while an independent government agency, does indeed tell government agencies and even private companies what they cannot say. When I was working for the NWS and worked with NTSB on one of their investigations, I was told specifically that if I talked with the news media both I and NWS would be kicked off the investigation. (After the release of the final NTSB report, all restrictions on speaking were void.)

On last night's news, the CEO of Boeing was asked a question by the news media that he would have known the answer to and he replied that the NTSB would have to answer it.

In recent years, the NTSB has kicked two people not affiliated with government off their investigations. One, as I recall, was a union representative.

My point is that we can't and don't want to model a NDRB after the NTSB 100%.
 
John,

What am I missing here? As I said, the NWS will not be changed by the NDRB. If the NWS says it believes a tornado occurred, it can say so if it wants. There's nothing in the legislation or my proposed amendments that would change that. The NDRB will have the final word but that doesn't say the NWS can't give its opinion.
 
There is an article in today's Wall Street Journal about the chair of the NTSB which gives a bit of insight into how she works: https://www.wsj.com/business/airlin...fwjpfxpu1qj&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink .

She says her obligation is to "the families of those who have been hurt" in transportation accidents. That's good, but since weather affects everyone, I'm hoping we can find a chair who views her/his obligation is to the public.

And, because I keep being asked, I am retired and have zero interest in being chair or working for the NDRB. While may be willing to work in the setting up stage (3-6 months), I'm retired and happily so.
 
Back
Top