• After witnessing the continued decrease of involvement in the SpotterNetwork staff in serving SN members with troubleshooting issues recently, I have unilaterally decided to terminate the relationship between SpotterNetwork's support and Stormtrack. I have witnessed multiple users unable to receive support weeks after initiating help threads on the forum. I find this lack of response from SpotterNetwork officials disappointing and a failure to hold up their end of the agreement that was made years ago, before I took over management of this site. In my opinion, having Stormtrack users sit and wait for so long to receive help on SpotterNetwork issues on the Stormtrack forums reflects poorly not only on SpotterNetwork, but on Stormtrack and (by association) me as well. Since the issue has not been satisfactorily addressed, I no longer wish for the Stormtrack forum to be associated with SpotterNetwork.

    I apologize to those who continue to have issues with the service and continue to see their issues left unaddressed. Please understand that the connection between ST and SN was put in place long before I had any say over it. But now that I am the "captain of this ship," it is within my right (nay, duty) to make adjustments as I see necessary. Ending this relationship is such an adjustment.

    For those who continue to need help, I recommend navigating a web browswer to SpotterNetwork's About page, and seeking the individuals listed on that page for all further inquiries about SpotterNetwork.

    From this moment forward, the SpotterNetwork sub-forum has been hidden/deleted and there will be no assurance that any SpotterNetwork issues brought up in any of Stormtrack's other sub-forums will be addressed. Do not rely on Stormtrack for help with SpotterNetwork issues.

    Sincerely, Jeff D.

Cuts to NOAA impacting the National Weather Service

What qualifications does Musk or anyone at the office he represents have in identifying operational staffing decisions?
Considering he helps run X, Tesla, Space-X and the Boring Company, I'd say he has quite a bit of experience.

CBS News quotes a source at the National Weather Service who said that meteorologists were impacted by this week's layoffs, including radar specialists, as well as staff of the Hurricane Hunters crew.
CBS news is wrong. The "radar specialists" are El-Techs and they will be rehired Monday if they haven't been already. Same with the meteorologists who man the Hurricane Hunter aircraft. No forecasters were supposed to have been laid off.

Speaking as a former government contractor, this is an outrage.
It is no more of an "outrage" than anyone else being laid off by a company that is losing money at an incredible rate and that will go out of business. The U.S. is $38 trillion in debt with the debt growing by $1 trillion every 100 days. It will sink us all if allowed to continue.

That said, it is a tragedy when someone (public or private sector) loses their job -- especially if it wasn't connected to their personal performance. I personally know a NWS administrative person who was laid off yesterday and she is just sick about it. She has done outstanding work.

Here are the facts from yesterday evening:


As of this afternoon, the Secretary of Commerce just granted a waiver for all NWS employees in job series 1340 (meteorology), 856 (electronics technicians, fixing computers and radars), 2210 (information technology), and 1315 (hydrology). Any MISSION-CRITICAL probationary firing in those series is a mistake and they're working on fixing. Some job series DID NOT get waived, such as 1301 (physical scientist, people who work at HQ, researchers). It is frustrating and sad for them, but they aren't considered "essential" during a lapse in appropriations.

The RIF is probably coming, but again most field offices are excepted (common term usage "essential") and it's less likely we'll be impacted. The more likely issue is the reduction in real estate footprint, so we'll have to see if they have to close some offices down the road.

But in this case, the fearmongering media reports about a 10% cut across NOAA were just plain wrong. And many NWS forecasters fell for it too.
 
I can understand how upsetting it can be when something happens like this to people in a sector near and dear to your heart, and we are on a message board about storm chasing so it makes sense to see quite a few who are upset by this move. But, making any sector of the government untouchable by saying everyone saves lives is in the same line as the public saying all chasers save lives. It just isn't so.

At what point does the law of diminishing returns take place before any reduction in force can be made? We see discussions all the time, even on this board, about too much warning time vs. not enough warning time, false alarm rate, etc. and while I believe we should always strive to be better/more accurate, does more people = better? When does an agency get so big and the target get so small that all the billions we pour in become throwing a bucket of water at a pinhole?

I've been in and seen layoffs happen to people close to me and it sucks. But that's part of business and everyone understands that it can happen when they work for someone else. Do I think it could probably be more surgical and thought out? Yes. But, to generally say any negative move against the agency is going to cost lives is a bit of an over-reaction.
 
It is no more of an "outrage" than anyone else being laid off by a company that is losing money at an incredible rate and that will go out of business. The U.S. is $38 trillion in debt with the debt growing by $1 trillion every 100 days. It will sink us all if allowed to continue.
Getting a little off-topic here, but since Mike brought it up a response is needed. It will NOT reduce the debt or deficit, because it is being done to pay for 4.5 trillion dollars in tax cuts, which will go mostly to billionaires and corporations, not folks like you and me. All the cuts Musk can make will not be enough to offset that. So yes, IMHO, it IS an outrage. Just eliminate the tax cuts for corporations and everyone making more than half a million a year, and you would reduce the deficit more than these massive across-the-board layoffs will.
 
Easy solution is just to end the federal reserve and repeal the federal reserve act of 1913 then have a sound currency where you can't spend 38 trillion by printing it. Then maybe we will stop funding forever wars and overseas aid and we can decide to spend it on things like science and roads and becoming the best society we can be instead of a bunch of rich people robbing us blind for decades.
 
Considering he helps run X, Tesla, Space-X and the Boring Company, I'd say he has quite a bit of experience.

I could pull all kinda of stats out about how none of that is relevant, but you're telling me Elon Musk has the expertise to know precisely which employees should be laid off? He knows which weather related jobs are not needed? He's an expert in Medicaid and Medicare? An expert in international aid? Veterans affairs?

This is why people are being fired then quickly rehired?
 
I can understand how upsetting it can be when something happens like this to people in a sector near and dear to your heart, and we are on a message board about storm chasing so it makes sense to see quite a few who are upset by this move. But, making any sector of the government untouchable by saying everyone saves lives is in the same line as the public saying all chasers save lives. It just isn't so.

At what point does the law of diminishing returns take place before any reduction in force can be made? We see discussions all the time, even on this board, about too much warning time vs. not enough warning time, false alarm rate, etc. and while I believe we should always strive to be better/more accurate, does more people = better? When does an agency get so big and the target get so small that all the billions we pour in become throwing a bucket of water at a pinhole?

I've been in and seen layoffs happen to people close to me and it sucks. But that's part of business and everyone understands that it can happen when they work for someone else. Do I think it could probably be more surgical and thought out? Yes. But, to generally say any negative move against the agency is going to cost lives is a bit of an over-reaction.

I doubt you'd have much pushback against a proper evaluation of operational staffing, if it identified jobs which weren't necessary. There probably wouldn't be pushback if there was transparency either.

It's just a bit odd watching people cheering on something that is being badly implemented under secrecy, because "their side" is doing it.

Oh and for all of the jobs and thousands of people now out of work, the actual savings are turning out to be a drop in the ocean.

And interesting how Space X contracts are being left alone...
 
Getting a little off-topic here, but since Mike brought it up a response is needed. It will NOT reduce the debt or deficit, because it is being done to pay for 4.5 trillion dollars in tax cuts, which will go mostly to billionaires and corporations, not folks like you and me. All the cuts Musk can make will not be enough to offset that. So yes, IMHO, it IS an outrage. Just eliminate the tax cuts for corporations and everyone making more than half a million a year, and you would reduce the deficit more than these massive across-the-board layoffs will.
Quite. There are tax cuts which will cost $4.5 trillion, coupled with a $4 trillion increase in the debt ceiling.
 
I doubt you'd have much pushback against a proper evaluation of operational staffing, if it identified jobs which weren't necessary. There probably wouldn't be pushback if there was transparency either.

It's just a bit odd watching people cheering on something that is being badly implemented under secrecy, because "their side" is doing it.

Oh and for all of the jobs and thousands of people now out of work, the actual savings are turning out to be a drop in the ocean.
Agreed. I have many thoughts on the current situation that veer into politics to one degree or another, and I'm trying my best to keep that out of here. I'm also choosing to ignore statements in this thread that are obstinately misinformed and border on the absurd, rather than engaging them pointlessly.

But, while observing reactions to the cuts this week, I've realized there's a widespread temptation to make a false equivalency between private sector layoffs and the current indiscriminate federal firings. My concern is that many people who've worked in the private sector their whole lives are prone to a line of thought that goes something like this: "I've had to deal with job insecurity and layoffs my whole career; about time these folks get a taste of it, too." Here are a couple reasons I'd push back on that:

1. These firings had nothing to do with removing low-value employees, or even high-cost employees. Indeed, most probationary employees are likely younger, hungrier to advance, and have a lower salary than the median non-probationary employee. They were targeted first solely because they're easier to fire due to a fluke of federal law that has no analog in the private sector. If you own a small tech business and decide you need to reduce your payroll expense, I doubt you would target a superstar 25-year-old you hired last year for an $80,000 salary that delivers more value than the mid-career $160,000 co-worker on his team who's in coasting mode. Yet, the young superstar was fired from NOAA this week.

2. There's a fundamental difference in the nature of government work vs. private enterprise, at least for some areas of government... including many within NOAA. If you're laid off from a Silicon Valley tech startup, or an oil and gas company, it sucks... but it's fairly likely their competitors have similar or even identical roles. This is less true in government, admittedly to different degrees for different roles. The issue I see for the research, development, and infrastructure sides of NOAA is that these employees did critical, high-value work for society as a whole (including providing the foundation for private sector services and products)... but equivalent private sector roles simply don't exist, and it's not practical for the private sector to "compete" in some of these spaces. I implore skeptics to consider, for example, extremely bright scientists and engineers with a stellar performance record who chose a career path working on the WSR-88D radar network, or working at EMC on physics parameterization schemes for our NWP models. Throwing these people out of government capriciously is not only devastating for them personally and professionally, but a net negative for all of us. Sure, they may be able to find some new role in academia or the private sector that leverages their science/math chops in a broad way... but realistically, they chose a path of specialization earlier in their education/career whose only direct application currently exists in government.

3. This is more of an addendum to #2: the reality is that the federal government is responsible for a large share of jobs and funding in meteorology, either directly through NOAA jobs or indirectly through grant money. A sudden pullback on this funding will very likely be devastating for the job market as a whole. Most of the private weather enterprise is built atop NOAA services and publicly-funded research; it is not really set up to compete with or supplant it. Arbitrarily plucking some extremely high achievers out of NOAA and dumping them into unemployment, with no realistic prospect of high-value private sector jobs suddenly appearing in their place, does not bode well for anyone... not least new and upcoming graduates, whom I fear for greatly.
 
And interesting how Space X contracts are being left alone...
To be fair, that might be one to counter prove your point. SpaceX has continually come in a lot cheaper and more reliable than competing projects including NASA itself. So far SpaceX has been a pretty innovative yet efficient company that has quickly moved along with the master vision. I personally would rather pay Elon say 250k to launch my satellite into space instead of millions with ULA.
 
1) Space X = conflict of interest for Musk.
2) Musk may be using a "move fast, break things, and rebuild" strategy. It may be good for a startup but makes a bit of a mess in the Federal Government which has large, legacy systems.
3) Hand-waving here, but I suspect the young computer people are mining personal data and using that data to target certain groups for layoff - and doing it poorly.
 
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