Convergence Frustration and Chaser Legislation

[Bill Tabor]

Ok, in other threads recently, we've all talked about the extreme convergence on some days last year, Vortex 2 issues, and the frustration which has been a growing concern and issue for some years now and continues unabated. There is also the video on Storm Chasers and Youtube showing the TIV May 19th 2010 passing cars / chasers in long lines blindly on a hill. Chris Novy reports 1000's of posts to his YouTube video regarding the TIV expressing he and other chasers have NO right to be there and get in the way of Sean Casey and those doing research. Chris can provide plenty of example posts. Here are some excerpts:

Last night I started receiving a ton of nasty messages on YouTube concerning
a clip ("Irresponsible TIV" ) I posted months ago. With few exceptions
almost everyone condemned me for showing the video and interfering with
TIV's "scientific research" and "life-saving mission".

After 5000+ new comments since the show this week --99.9% supporting
the TIV and Dominator and berating the rest of us "amateurs" for getting
in the way or real science-- I decided to follow Steve Miller's lead and
disallow commenting on my video but leave the video in place.

memyselfandi1234100<http://www.youtube.com/user/memyselfandi1234100?email=comment_received>writes...

"It was really dumb to post this video. There out there to do there job and
help save lives by gathering data and your not helping them at all. You
could of just might of ruined his chances to make his Imax movie too. While
your just there to gawk at the tornado."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQQ_-ECVVag

Do you feel this public anger is justified? Do your typical run of the mill chasers have NO right to be out there? Are we endangering the public needlessly and interfering in research and spotting activity to the extent that we (most chasers) are hazards? Should all of the chasers be eliminated and chasing legislated to make it a crime to chase storms? Certainly I suspect there are those at this very moment likely working toward that very goal, and in the near term chasing could be a crime unless you have some official business out there such as research, spotting, or maybe media (grey area).

In the past when similar discussion began I envisioned a possible terrible future scenario in a creative short story when chasing would be illegal and those that chased storms would be 'criminals'. Here is that short story:
http://www.tornadoxtreme.com/Chase_Inspiration/The_Storm_Warrior/the_storm_warrior.html

Please provide your opinion for feedback. Is it time for chasing legislation to help control these unruly, dangerous convergence situations which are very difficult for towns such as Hennessey, or Kingfisher Oklahoma as they were last May 19th, or are you against legislating chasing? Why, what are some of your ideas or views on this subject?

 

[Skip Talbot]

Please provide your opinion for feedback. Is it time for chasing legislation to help control these unruly, dangerous convergence situations which are very difficult for towns such as Hennessey, or Kingfisher Oklahoma as they were last May 19th, or are you against legislating chasing? Why, what are some of your ideas or views on this subject?

Chase legislation has been covered a multitude of times on here, and ranks up with there with other infamous lightbar type threads. The bottom line is, we already have the legislation in place. They are called traffic laws. Even if anti-chase legislation were to pass, it would be extremely difficult to effectively enforce (unless you're driving a TIV of course).

The youtube crowd has zero qualifications for commenting on videos like the May 19 incident. They epitomize those "I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express..." commercials. "I watched Storm Chasers on Discovery last night..." Their commentating on these videos is completely worthless and should be discarded as idiots' squabbling.

Let's take the worst case scenario: massive public outrage on youtube sparks legislation. Storm chasing is banned except by those permitted. Simply take your lightbar off the roof, and pull your skywarn stickers, and you're good to go: a rebel storm chaser under the radar.

Worst case scenario: No legislation and the hoards continue to sky rocket in number. Try chasing a different storm. Play the more isolated cells further down the dryline. There were plenty of photogenic tornadoes on the 19th that only a handful of chasers got. There are tons of great low key setups each year that only a few people are on. TV-Samaras had the right attitude in Storm Chasers when he said he was too old to be bothered by the hoards and trying to break traffic laws to get there... there will be other days.

 

[David Drummond]

There is nothing grey area about the media coverage. It's called Freedom of the Press and it's guaranteed by our Constitution. You can very well bet if any legislation is ever passed regarding storm chasing (not likely), that media will be considered one of the "official chasers". Media interests have many high paid lawyers to insure it.

 

[Andy Jackson]

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PLEASE DELETE
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[Jesse Risley]

I don't see any legislation likely, nor do I think it is needed. If someone is acting recklessly, obstructing traffic, or otherwise hindering emergency vehicles from getting to where they need to be, then they can be cited under existing traffic/vehicle code statutes as Skip noted.

I was stopped on Hwy 270 in Beaver County, OK by an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper for going 61 mph in a 55 mph zone (yes, you read that correctly) back in June. The Youtube video in question was brought up within two minutes of my roadside conversation with the trooper, and I was told that "we're (OHP) not going to tolerate any more of this reckless behavior from your brand." So yes, I think some agencies are already being more aggressive on this front. Everyone in their department (I don't know if that meant just his local barracks or the entire OHP force itself) viewed the video, it was discussed at one of those departmental meeting, and a note to be cognizant of storm chasers and their reckless behavior was given to the troopers, at least according to the gentleman that stopped me.

If legislation were ever to be passed that tried to make storm chasing as a broad pursuit illegal, then it would probably fail (LEOs have far more pressing matters when a tornado is hitting communities) and it would likely be ruled unconstitutional. As for the Youtube video, I read many of the comments being posted on Steve Miller's page the night that the episode aired. Judging by the nature of the commentary, I didn't hold the commentators in high esteem. I really don't think most of them hold prestigious positions of influence in our society.

 

[Bart_Comstock]

The real problem is the uneducated public that don't realize the important role that most chasers play in the warning process. Another misconseption is that the TIV is out for the science which Sean himself has confessed on camera that his primary goal is the movie. There is also a big myth going around that the golden ticket to learning how to better predict tornadoes will come with getting data from probes or intercept vehicles inside of the tornado. Really everyone is just soaking up what is handed to them by these popular shows and have little to no knowledge of meteorology or chasing in general.

Any attempt to outlaw chasing or spotting will result in an outcry those involved in the warning process and even if chasing is outlawed it will be incredibly difficult to police storm side. The only thing I can see happening is that LEO's will start to hit chasers hard before the storms fire with tickets for speeding and other moving violations. They may also set up road blocks to keep all the thrill seekers out and may let those with radios and a professional appearance continue on (much like they do with hurricanes). We may also see curfews be enacted but even then it is impossible to enforce a curfew during a warning.

Really what it all comes down to is a bunch of fans of a popular show are trying to suck up to their beloved source of entertainment. Those of you who are dealing with the idiot posters on youtube have just met the "twilight" fans of storm chasers. Laugh at their ignorance and move along.

 

[Chris Nuttall]

Mistake #1: We are paying attention to YouTube comments and taking them somewhat seriously.

Next, I'm of the opinion that chase legislation would be detrimental to the public. Spotters and chasers provide a valuable cog in the wheel for warning operations. We all know that meteorologists rely on spotters and chasers to provide ground truth. Some may argue that local LEOs, fire depts, etc. can handle this. Sure, they can to a degree. However, the vast majority of reports that I take do NOT come from these folks. They come from members of the public that go to spotter trainings because they have an interest in the weather and want to help. Some people may argue that you have to go to a spotter training to "license" people. Okay, that's easy for anyone to go to. How are you going to filter that? Are you going to put some kind of requirements down for this? This would cost too much money and too many resources.

We've discussed over and over about enforcement on the road, but I'll revisit it for those new here. It would be impossible. What are officials to do about local residents simply trying to get from A to B with a storm in close proximity? What about the truckers traveling the highways? What are you going to do, set up moving roadblocks around a storm? That's all fine and dandy if the storm is moving at 25mph. What about the storms moving at 50-60mph? Again, it costs too much money and is too much of a drain on resources during a situation that already constitutes an emergency.

No one chaser has any more right to the roadway that anyone else. I don't care what their purpose is. To use another analogy, does a professional fisherman in a tournament have any more right to Cotton Cove on Bass Lake than a recreational fisherman or a fisherman that's depending on his catch for his next meal?

In summary, between the economic and resource cost of drafting, passing, licensing, and enforcing chase legislation, and the potential harm to warning operations and public safety that could result...chase legislation is not feasible. It's kind of like Congress investigating the BCS, there are bigger problems out there that need to be addressed.

Of course, many of the issues would not be a problem as long as everyone acted responsibly on a chase. I'm not singling anyone out, but someone out there is always going to speed or drive more aggressively than they should in a mad rush to get in position on a storm.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled lightbar...er, responsible chasing...er, chaser police thread.

 

[Sean Ramsey]

I hardly think YT comments count as public anger and shouldn't carry any weight at all. Trying to legislate storm chasing would be like trying to legislate rush hour traffic, and fretting about any pending legislation or future legislation is a waste of energy.

As long as traffic rules are observed, chasers can and will be able to go wherever they please.

 

[Joel Taylor]

Youtube comments = non issue. A lot of those people have become fans of TIV, TVN, and/or TWISTEX and in their minds their favorite group(s) can do no wrong. So if you do something that "attacks" one of their favorite chasers, whether right or wrong, they'll stick up for them. Human nature can be really weird sometimes. In the same sense though, there are certain people in which the different groups can't do anything right. So it goes both ways.

May 19 is a little bit of anomoly when it comes to chaser convergence. After chasing for the past thirteen years, there's only one or two days that I can remember where I got frustrated with the number of chasers. On the 19th a storm was approaching a very populated area in OKC/Edmond just after people were getting off of work a little over a week after a major tornado outbreak in the same area. Interest was high, population was high, and there was only one storm they could get to. As frustrating as it was, though, they all have the right to be there. Funny thing is... with all of the hundreds to over a thousand people that were on that storm, only a handful saw the large tornado that it produced. The one thing I've learned is that a lot of chasers get stuck watching a turbulent RFD and miss the action farther to the north (May 19th of this year, and the first storm that went up near Medicine Lodge KS on May 5, 2007 come to mind). Tends to happen a lot on higher precip storms. Anyways, my dad and I saw this on that day (starts at 3:10).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxcbM7J4imw

We had no one else near us while there was a traffic jam 8 miles to the south.

I know one of the local branches of Oklahoma Farm Bureau tried to add chasing regulations as one of their planks but it got nixed because one of the guys has chased with me in the past. It's something to definately keep an eye on but the probability of it ever happening is fairly slim. And if it does, enforceability would be tough. One thing that we (TVN) try to emphasize when we give talks or speak with LEO is the value that chasers add. Even on Discovery they make sure to show us calling in warnings or helping out with search and rescue when we can (and by we I mean all chasers). The biggest issue really isn't the couple of hundred regular chasers who revolve their lives around the next storm, it's Joe Blow who will eventually get himself killed trying to impress his friends, but has every right to do so.

 

[Adam Lucio]

Yea, this debate is starting to get old. Everyone thinks they have a right to be there more than the other person. Whether its because they have been chasing for 10 years, are with a research group, TV crew, local who lives in the area...its the same thought process with the same result. The fact of the matter is we are all out there to see weather, and no one person has a right over me, just like I dont have a right over anyone else. So I apologize to those who would expect me to bow down to them for whatever their self proclaimed superiority is, but its not happening.

Something I learned many years ago that applies to life in general and not just chasing is the world will never change for you. If you don't like something its up to YOU to make the changes. Lifes a bitch sometimes but thats the way it is.

If you hate the convergence, don't take a 2 week chasecation in May, don't try and be a penny pincher by chasing in a compact car that cant travel off main highways. Change your comfort zone a bit, the best storms in 2010 were in the northern plains this year, and each time I was out there the chaser numbers were significantly lower. Pass up that high risk OK clusterf*** in May for a more marginal setup in MN in June that has the potential for a HUGE reward.

Try hanging back a few miles while everyone battles it out for a parking spot directly under the meso. I did this on 6-10-10 and it was one of my favorite chases being able to sit in the back of my truck and watch 2 beautiful tornadoes while laughing at the 283782 pairs of headlights I could see all clumped together way down the road.

No amount of squabbling and talking about it is going to change it. When you add more people you add more problems. So if it really bugs you that much, find a way to remove yourself from the problem. It can be done

 

[J Tyler]

People following storms (for whatever the reason) is not what concerns law enforcement. It is people breaking traffic laws, and being unsafe.

I have not had a ticket of any type in 14 years. I genuinely try to obey the law. When I do have to stop to observe weather, I make a special effort to GET OFF THE ROAD. Pull up to a side street, whatever, but I really dislike sitting on a shoulder of a highway. Speeding, running red lights, passing dangerously, tailgating?! That stuff is not ok whether you are chasing or just being reckless (like half the people driving in Dallas every day!)!

My other big hobby is fast cars. Unfortunately, that hobby seems to be just like THIS one. A few kids do something stupid like street racing, so then the cops look at all fast car owners with "The Evil Eye". Same thing here.

I think the best thing we can do is encourage one another to try and always do what we know is right. When everyone gets all excited out there, remind each other to slow down. Peer pressure can actually be a good thing.

 

[Scott Weberpal]

I was stopped on Hwy 270 in Beaver County, OK by an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper for going 61 mph in a 55 mph zone (yes, you read that correctly) back in June. The Youtube video in question was brought up within two minutes of my roadside conversation with the trooper, and I was told that "we're (OHP) not going to tolerate any more of this reckless behavior from your brand."

Good 'ol Beaver County, OK. As far back as 2003 (and perhaps beyond), chasers have complained about strict enforcement in Beaver County - they know where chasers are going to chase and they'll have speed traps set up along 412 looking solely for chasers. Other than locals and big rigs, I can't imagine there is too much traffic, so even chasers with relatively low-profile vehicles stick out.

 

[Jason Foster]

Yup....good ole Beaver County. Don't forget Texas County next door. I think 70% of my and others I've chased with have been stopped and/or ticketed there.

Everyone just deal with convergence the way they personally choose to do so. We are trying to talk a lot about choices and restrictions, but the bottomline is we just need to decide for ourselves. There is currently NO laws forbidding chasing. Let's deal with any attempt at legislation when it (if ever) comes to pass, but for now...just enjoy the time.

 

[Darren Cheney]

Let's pretend that some silly law maker had his or her way and chasing as we know it was banned. What would be the economic cost of such a ban? Anyone think of too many other reasons why a town like Woodward OK (and other countless smaller towns across the plains) might have every hotel room full?

Has anyone quantified the economic contribution chasers make to the plains states with fuel, lodging ,food etc.?

Be an interesting study. Certainly an extra string to our bow if we ever had to argue our cause! (which I don't believe we ever will)

 

[Joshua Nall]

I have had plenty of thoughts on this as I read it, but just to comment on the previous post... government is always making laws in the name of safety with little concern for economic cost. Look at all the "global warming" laws or the oil spill in the gulf.... ban on drilling. GE is closing down incandescent light bulb plants here because the government banned them and building florescent plants in China.

I agree with many of the previous posters that the real issue is simply obeying the existing laws, and media, film makers and researchers or scientist carry no special privileges when it comes to traffic laws. If everyone just used some common sense and obeyed the existing law, convergences wouldn't be such an issue. Seems like that has been said before, lol.

As far as the ignorant masses watching storm chasers and posting on youtube.... don't discount them, they have power. The reason this country is broke and will suffer serious economic issues into the future is because of the ignorant masses of people and the power they hold, who they put in office... consider California for an extreme example. There is always power in numbers, no matter if they are idiots. In fact it is the idiots that make certian leaders, regimes, government institutions powerful.

And in this type of discussion the Constitution always comes up. The Constitution is already being trashed. The federal government has forced itself into the affairs of the states for so long that I doubt it will or can ever be stopped. I think its foolish to think the state could not force itself into the affairs of the citizen and take away their rights as well... Consider the fishing example... I can see the government coming in and banning a fishing tournament because it disrupts a local lake. There would be a huge argument over restricting chasing or government at least trying to.... but never say never. I mean just consider the folks in our number that want to force people to own weather radios, in the name of safety of course. This idea that seems to have really taken off lately, that the good of the people in general is more important than individual liberty, will lead to all sorts of new laws and regulation. To say that this socialist state of mind will not effect storm chasing in some way is being short sighted I think.
Look at the big picture. America has always been about individual liberty for the citizen, the common belief was that Americans as a people only reach their greatest potential when they are free as individuals. And look at what has been achieved. It's not like that anymore. I'm afraid the result of this will effect everything at some point in the future, including chasing.