• After witnessing the continued decrease of involvement in the SpotterNetwork staff in serving SN members with troubleshooting issues recently, I have unilaterally decided to terminate the relationship between SpotterNetwork's support and Stormtrack. I have witnessed multiple users unable to receive support weeks after initiating help threads on the forum. I find this lack of response from SpotterNetwork officials disappointing and a failure to hold up their end of the agreement that was made years ago, before I took over management of this site. In my opinion, having Stormtrack users sit and wait for so long to receive help on SpotterNetwork issues on the Stormtrack forums reflects poorly not only on SpotterNetwork, but on Stormtrack and (by association) me as well. Since the issue has not been satisfactorily addressed, I no longer wish for the Stormtrack forum to be associated with SpotterNetwork.

    I apologize to those who continue to have issues with the service and continue to see their issues left unaddressed. Please understand that the connection between ST and SN was put in place long before I had any say over it. But now that I am the "captain of this ship," it is within my right (nay, duty) to make adjustments as I see necessary. Ending this relationship is such an adjustment.

    For those who continue to need help, I recommend navigating a web browswer to SpotterNetwork's About page, and seeking the individuals listed on that page for all further inquiries about SpotterNetwork.

    From this moment forward, the SpotterNetwork sub-forum has been hidden/deleted and there will be no assurance that any SpotterNetwork issues brought up in any of Stormtrack's other sub-forums will be addressed. Do not rely on Stormtrack for help with SpotterNetwork issues.

    Sincerely, Jeff D.

Christmas and HD Cams

Just an unclear thought here, couldn't you use an 8mm low light cam then copy it into the HD cam? It works for DV so just wondering about HD
 
Here is a quote from a user of the HV20.

3. Low Light perfomance: Now this is what I was most nervous about...my worries are over. The HV20 KILLS the HC1 in low light performance. It is SO MUCH BETTER that even if my HC1 wasn't dying, I would still upgrade! I have 3 kids and so indoor pictures has to be good. Again, my wife and friends saw a significant difference in low light performance. This was at a shutter speed of 1/60 and normal family room lighting.
4.24p recording: I read up on all the info

I to am in the market for a point and shoot camera, as my DVX100A is such a pain to use while dealing with all the other demands of chasing also. On top of that I would like to upgrade to HD as well. I am not a night chaser and I could care less about the low light issue BUT Youtube has many "test" shoots with the HV20 just type "HV20 Low light" into the search box.

Mick
 
I am not a night chaser and I could care less about the low light issue BUT Youtube has many "test" shoots with the HV20 just type "HV20 Low light" into the search box.

Mick

Chasing camcorders and low light don't necessarily have to do with night chasing. Many storm environments shot in daylight around storms are very low light due to cloud cover.

That low light info (3 lux) about the HV20 for the price (around $660) is interesting. It is likely inexpensive enough to make motivate some to check it out. If they sell it at Frys Electronics I'd be tempted to buy one and test it. They have a very liberal return policy.
 
Speaking of editing - what software do you recomend for an HV20 - or any other HD camcorder?

I've read in many places most are using Sony Vegas. Pinnacle Studio supports Hd, and likely their more professional software does as well. I'm not sure if Tsunami products support HD yet, but I'd suspect yes.
 
Chasing camcorders and low light don't necessarily have to do with night chasing. Many storm environments shot in daylight around storms are very low light due to cloud cover.

Yep. True. True. True.

I did go to Best Buy the day I posted my last post and actually tested it out. Kind of... Granted it was just the display unit but I did get a feel for it.
The picture on the HD TV it was wired to was down right awesome both in HD and 24p modes. The 24p is not as good as the DVX but to many of us chasers that is not an issue I don't think. If you do not make to many sudden movements it works well while in 24p mode.

Now the kicker; low light. Although I was not able to get them to let me use it with a tape. I was able to talk them into letting me take the unit to a dimly lit area of the store - "The stockroom hallway" lol. It was pretty dark, kind of like the corner of a bar / club. Again, I did not record to tape but I did try it out just by using the view finder. Here are my results:

First I shot it in HD. It did well IMO. I could see a good amount of detail through the view finder. I messed with the shutter speeds and the lower I went the better the quality got. Will it work for chasing in the dim storm environments? I think it will do just fine if you mess with the shutter speed along with using 24p mode.

Second I tried it in 24p mode. This is where you get the most of these dark lit areas. If the shutter speed was dropped to the lowest setting (sorry I can’t remember what that was now) it was actually very good. You could see just about everything in good detail.

The things I did not like about the camera.

1.) The eye piece is NOT adjustable so when you need to use it you either have to bend down and cock your neck just right or you have to have the camera up to your eye level for a comfortable view.

2.) The focus bar is so small it is very hard to control if you have large fingers. I do not and I even had a hard time with it. Also if you have the view finder tilted back it gets in the way of the focus button.

3.) 24p was shaky with quick movements.

4.) One other thing I did not like about the unit is the digital zoom. Naturally all digital zoom units get very pixilated when you zoom in VERY close. The HV20 has a 200x digital zoom and once you get to about 100x it get rather grainy so just a word of caution.

Other than that I have no other complaints right now. I will end up buying the unit from B&H at the end of the month so I will shoot some test footage and post it here if you would like.

BTW: The sales guy was a little pissed that I did not buy the camera after he spent 45 minutes with me lol.

Mick
 
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2.) The focus bar is so small it is very hard to control if you have large fingers. I do not and I even had a hard time with it. Also if you have the view finder tilted back it gets in the way of the focus button.

Mick, how difficult was the camera to put into Infinity. Is there an infinity button or does one just focus out with the manual setting?

Bill Hark
 
Mick, how difficult was the camera to put into Infinity. Is there an infinity button or does one just focus out with the manual setting?

Bill Hark


Bill,

Well you have to use manual focus because there is no infinity button on the unit. As far as the level of difficulty to get the unit to infinity focus, I think one will just have to get use to that little focus scroll button / control. Once one get use to it I don’t think it will be that hard. Not to say he / she will like though…

One other thing I did not like about the unit is the digital zoom. Naturally all digital zoom units get very pixilated when you zoom in VERY close. The HV20 has a 200x digital zoom and once you get to about 100x it get rather grainy so just a word of caution.

Mick
 
Bill,

Well you have to use manual focus because there is no infinity button on the unit. As far as the level of difficulty to get the unit to infinity focus, I think one will just have to get use to that little focus scroll button / control. Once one get use to it I don’t think it will be that hard. Not to say he / she will like though…

One other thing I did not like about the unit is the digital zoom. Naturally all digital zoom units get very pixilated when you zoom in VERY close. The HV20 has a 200x digital zoom and once you get to about 100x it get rather grainy so just a word of caution.

Mick

My wife and I own an HV20, so I can clarify a couple of points here.

There is indeed a focus button that switches between manual, automatic and infinity. The catch is that to get to infinity you have to hold it down for several seconds--the camera initially displays the infinity symbol on the LCD, but it's a bit confusing because once you zoom in or out the camera then displays an "M" which is exactly the same as in manual mode, even though it is still in infinity.

The camera has 10x optical zoom and the digital zoom can be disabled, which is what I have done--no way I'm going to shoot footage with the camera digitally zoomed.

It is true the camera has a rather small zoom button that was a little awkward to use at first, especially since I have large fingers. However, after a little practice I became used to it and it's no longer a problem.

Footage quality is excellent. Unfortunately, I got the unit just before two of my biggest chase days of the year (May 4/5), and didn't realize I had it set in aperture-takes-priority mode on the fastest possible shutter speed (1/2000) until after the chase (suffice it to say I've since educated myself thoroughly about every aspect of the camcorder). So I was out there trying to adjust the camera for the low lighting on both days (which meant I was adjusting the aperture only and not the shutter speed), and got mediocre footage at best--at least of the bigger tornadoes I saw near/after dark. I do have some tripoded footage from earlier in the day on May 5 when there was plenty of light, and it looks phenomenal in full-resolution--though of course it's of a pathetic dust whirl tornado instead of the monsters we saw near/after dark. ;)

If anyone wants to see the footage of the small tornado, let me know and I'll upload it to a public location when I get the chance. I've since tested it quite a bit in low-light conditions (at dusk, for instance) and it has performed rather well.
 
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If anyone wants to see the footage of the small tornado, let me know and I'll upload it to a public location when I get the chance. I've since tested it quite a bit in low-light conditions (at dusk, for instance) and it has performed rather well.

Glad to hear from someone who has the unit and has worked with it. Thanks Donald!

I think many of us would love to see your video indeed. If you need a place to upload it to let me know and I will give you some space on my server for the video clip.

Thanks!

Mick
 
I think many of us would love to see your video indeed. If you need a place to upload it to let me know and I will give you some space on my server for the video clip.
Mick

I have a place to upload it and will do so this weekend if I get the chance and post the URL here (I'm already pretty busy, but hope to have a little free time). If there are any particular lighting situations you or anyone else are interested in, let me know and I'll try to see if I either already have an example or can approximate those conditions. I need to break the cam out again and play around anyway in preparation for spring, as it's been awhile since I used it much.
 
Hey this is great stuff guys. Thanks for all the info and research as it will pay us all dividends. I'm starting to get a little excited about this.

How stuttery is the HD20 in 24P mode? I remember my Vx2000 has a progressive mode and when you switch to it it's like you are in slow motion - very jerky. It is unusable IMO. Is the 24P mode that bad?

Someone might experiment with Cinema mode. I saw some Youtube video shot in the dark in Cinema and it looked pretty good.

I watched all the low light HD20 vid on Youtube but it was hard to tell as they were usually shooting pictures of light sources. Some of the low light shots looked a bit blocky or pixelated, but that may have just been due to low quality youtube video file sizes, etc.

If you do some test footage, try and make it realistic to chasing. Go out a dusk and shoot at clouds and see what you get. Try early on and then as it gets to total dark. If comparison footage of a good low light cam could be run at the same time that would be super good - such as with a Vx2000 or Vx2100. Then we could really tell the difference.

It would also be great to see what we get with lightning. On one of the Youtube videos they had a party in the dark with strobe lights going and the video seemed to handle it well.
 
How stuttery is the HD20 in 24P mode? I remember my Vx2000 has a progressive mode and when you switch to it it's like you are in slow motion - very jerky. It is unusable IMO. Is the 24P mode that bad?

I've experimented a little with the 24p mode, and haven't had a problem with stutter. A more informed opinion than mine comes from the producer of Tornado Glory, who also owns an HV20 and discussed the camera with me in detail. He told me he was initially concerned that there would be problems with stutter and jerkiness, but that it turned out not to be a problem and that he now shoots exclusively in 24p when using the HV20.

I watched all the low light HD20 vid on Youtube but it was hard to tell as they were usually shooting pictures of light sources. Some of the low light shots looked a bit blocky or pixelated, but that may have just been due to low quality youtube video file sizes, etc.

If you do some test footage, try and make it realistic to chasing. Go out a dusk and shoot at clouds and see what you get. Try early on and then as it gets to total dark. If comparison footage of a good low light cam could be run at the same time that would be super good - such as with a Vx2000 or Vx2100. Then we could really tell the difference.

I've done exactly what you propose last summer by shooting footage near dusk of the sky/clouds/moon/etc. My experience was that as it becomes dark, there are increasing problems with grain in the footage, which may explain the "blockiness" or "pixellation" you observed in the youtube videos.

It would also be great to see what we get with lightning. On one of the Youtube videos they had a party in the dark with strobe lights going and the video seemed to handle it well.

I've found correctly exposing lightning using the HV20 to be very tricky, however I think this is probably just caused by my being a newbie when it comes to photography and videography. I haven't played around with it a lot, but I suspect that shooting with a narrower aperture and/or using a lens hood would solve most of my problems.

Regardless, you guys have lit a fire under my butt, I'm ready to get this thing out again and do some experimenting. :D
 
6th Avenue Electronics has the HV20 priced $687.13 shipped, no tax unless you are in NJ or NY:
http://www.6ave.com/shop/Product.aspx?sku=CANHV20

They are a reputable dealer as well:
http://reviews.pricegrabber.com/6th-ave-electronics/r/407/

I'd love to pull the trigger on this.

All motion picture film is shot 24FPS. Any Hollywood movie transfered from film to DVD is still in 24FPS on the DVD, it takes up less space less space, so less compression is needed. Leaving the camera in that mode for better low light performance is not a problem for me.

I don't like the looks of any video lightning shots, so that is a non-issue for me as well.

I'm torn between getting the HV20 or an image stabilizing lens for my still cam.
 
I have a place to upload it and will do so this weekend if I get the chance and post the URL here (I'm already pretty busy, but hope to have a little free time). If there are any particular lighting situations you or anyone else are interested in, let me know and I'll try to see if I either already have an example or can approximate those conditions. I need to break the cam out again and play around anyway in preparation for spring, as it's been awhile since I used it much.

Well, the small tornado footage was OK but not as good as I remembered it being--it was much better than the other stuff I shot May 5, but still a bit on the grainy side due to the short exposure. Anyway, I recalled a little time-lapse of some airmass thunderstorms I took while doing yard work one day--it is less grainy and will hopefully be of some help. The file is MPEG-2 and therefore huge, nearly 600 MB for about 2 1/2 minutes of footage. I tried converting it to Windows Media (~100 MB), but apparently my computer can't handle decoding and playing it back in real-time that format--it stutters quite a bit, and this computer is not exactly a dog (dual-core with 2GB RAM). Just goes to show how CPU-intensive HD footage is, but I've included both links in case anyone wants to try the WMV file. Also, as an FYI, encoding this short clip into WMV took well over an hour, so if you're considering moving to HD, be sure your computer is pretty fast and be prepared to have to wait a long time for footage to render into a new format, as HD requires roughly an order of magnitude more CPU power than SD. HD is awesome and worth the extra effort IMO, but it'll probably be 2-3 years before the average desktop PC can better handle editing HD footage.

That said, here are the links. I forgot to de-interlace the footage, but if you use VLC to play back the MPEG-2 file, you can set it to de-interlace on the fly. The WMV file is still uploading, so if that link doesn't work try again in a few minutes.

http://www.ounhat.com/video/timelapse.mpg
http://www.ounhat.com/video/timelapse.wmv

If anyone has any questions, don't hesitate to ask, though I may not be of much help as I'm pretty new at this stuff.
 
The LCD on HD cameras can be deceiving especially with low-light scenes. You should never judge an HD picture by the LCD - wait until you can get it on an HDTV or a big computer monitor. The low light grain and artifacting that will be highly visible on a 52 inch plasma will not be apparent on the tiny LCD.
 
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