Capturing HV-20 video

[Mike Hollingshead]

Wondering if anyone else has issues when capturing footage from the canon HV20 or any ideas what might be my issue. My computer is 4-5 years old but has always captured HDV just fine from my Sony HC1 using premiere pro 1.5 HDV upgrade. So it's up to the task, doesn't even really drop frames ever. From the Canon HV20 it's another story.

It's strange, it will capture for a couple minutes straight just fine. Then there are sections of tape it just does not want to capture even if you start right before those parts. Right away it captures all garbled up. I just don't get what the deal is. There's nothing wrong with those sections of tape as you see zero issues when playing back on the camera, tv, or even the computer monitor. Perfectly fine. But hell if the computer wants to capture certain parts. I can sometimes do it if I retry enough times in tiny sections, then try and splice it all together. But this is not at all practical to try on a full dvd production.

It almost seems like perhaps with the HV20 the bitrate jumps too high in parts and that is what causes it to want to choke on capture. Seems odd though it NEVER does that with Sony HC1 footage. Maybe it's a issue with premiere pro and the canon. Doesn't seem likely if it's able to do other sections of tape just fine.

Just wondering if anyone has came across this and knows any fixes other than a big PC upgrade. I've heard from some others having issues capturing from the canons.

Thanks for any thoughts.

 

[Steve Carmel]

MIke - I'd try going to both the Sony & Adobe support sites. Then look for a preset or codec specifially for your camera. Do you have the full version or the trial version of Premiere Pro?

Premiere Pro 1.5 Adobe HDV plug-in - click here

 

[Dan Robinson]

I think this problem stems from the fact that Premiere 1.5.1 doesn't support native M2T (MPEG-2 transport) files, which is the raw format from HDV cams.

The Premiere 1.5.1 HDV patch uses the proprietary Cineform codec to convert the captured HD footage to a Cineform AVI file so that Premiere 1.5 can read it. This means the computer is trying to convert the file on-the-fly as it is capturing, two high-CPU tasks at once. On an older machine, this makes the capture drop frames. On my old desktop machine, it did this so much that it wouldn't work at all.

MPEG videos will have higher data rates for scenes that have higher motion involved. I's possible that the problem sections crop up when the scene on the tape involves a lot of motion.

When I first bought my HD camera, I had to purchase Cineform HDLink, a small standalone app that would just capture the raw M2T file alone. Then you could convert to Cineform AVI *after* the capture was finished, then import to Premeire. Cineform doesn't sell that little app any more unfortunately. They have a more expensive package now (of course), but IMO the money would be much better spent to upgrade to Premiere 2.0, CS3 or CS4. Premiere 2,0 and up will edit native HDV, so no conversion is necessary during capture. I have CS3 and it works far better than 1.5 - no issues at all with capture, editing or export.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Thanks for the good info Dan.

Steve, I have premiere pro 1.5 to HDV already, not the trial version.

Maybe CS3 or 4 will be the way to go. Just odd I've had zero problems capturing HDV with premiere 1.5 to cineform from my HC1 and varying times it doesn't want to capture the HV20. I thought about the motion thing too but that doesn't appear to be it. Whatever the case, it's something in the HV20 data premiere 1.5 isn't liking to swallow. Hopefully a software upgrade will fix it. Glad to know they've worked better for you than 1.5. Guess they surely have trials that would tell the tale. Man, always something to upgrade for...sigh.

I think this problem stems from the fact that Premiere 1.5.1 doesn't support native M2T (MPEG-2 transport) files, which is the raw format from HDV cams.

The Premiere 1.5.1 HDV patch uses the proprietary Cineform codec to convert the captured HD footage to a Cineform AVI file so that Premiere 1.5 can read it. This means the computer is trying to convert the file on-the-fly as it is capturing, two high-CPU tasks at once. On an older machine, this makes the capture drop frames. On my old desktop machine, it did this so much that it wouldn't work at all.

MPEG videos will have higher data rates for scenes that have higher motion involved. I's possible that the problem sections crop up when the scene on the tape involves a lot of motion.

When I first bought my HD camera, I had to purchase Cineform HDLink, a small standalone app that would just capture the raw M2T file alone. Then you could convert to Cineform AVI *after* the capture was finished, then import to Premeire. Cineform doesn't sell that little app any more unfortunately. They have a more expensive package now (of course), but IMO the money would be much better spent to upgrade to Premiere 2.0, CS3 or CS4. Premiere 2,0 and up will edit native HDV, so no conversion is necessary during capture. I have CS3 and it works far better than 1.5 - no issues at all with capture, editing or export.

 

[Scott Bennett]

Lanny called me the other night with a simular problem, not sure if he resolved it.

He found that the format was not compatible until CS4.

I have a JVC GZ5-HD and it has some strange format also, using the latest Premier Elements I had no problem working with the files.

Whatever you do don't buy your upgrade on the Adobe site and expect to use it the same day, it takes a day or two to get your key. I know a couple people including myself that have been burned by that.

 

[D. Hayes]

Check out this site. Tons of information that my feeble mind don't care to remember. Applies to both HV20 and HV30 models.

www.hv20.com

 

[Scott Weberpal]

I have an HV20 and use CS3 and have had no problems. I captured nearly 10 consecutive minutes of HDV without any drops and other apparent issues.

 

[James Langford]

I use the HV-20, and have not had any problems yet. However, I just use plain old Windows Movie Maker to import it. Have you tried that yet? It would at least help you to isolate the problem.

James

 

[Rob Wadsworth]

If that is true, then it may be a video card issue.
What brand/memory amount/GPU speed is your viddy card using, Mike?
If it is not software; then...

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Thanks for the additional info! Should be able to square it away and it's good to hear others not having problems with non-premiere 1.5 aps. That was my biggest deal was knowing it wasn't just a cam issue.

As for computer specs, got me on all those. I know they are all more than enough, since like I said, I can capture forever from the Sony HC1 without dropping frames. I'm not terribly sure just how important the vid card is for capturing via firewire either. My non-pcdepth brain says it shouldn't be too important. Ram was fine before for the Sony HC1 while having 1 gig, and had added another since then.

Dan's cineform info when using premiere 1.5 pretty much nails it....I would think. HV20 has to be just a hair different than the HC1 that makes it screw up at times capturing this way(where it is converting to avi on the fly too like he said). Upgrading and taking that aspect out of the picture should fix it.

 

[Joe beier]

I use the HV-20, and have not had any problems yet. However, I just use plain old Windows Movie Maker to import it. Have you tried that yet? It would at least help you to isolate the problem.

James

That's all I use ... importing, editing, publishing and all but I have an HV40.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

I tried windows movie maker last night and like always, there's a problem. It won't recognize either my Sony HC1 or the Canon HV20. Hmmm. Just looked at upgrade costs for Premiere and screw that, $280 to upgrade. That is worse than upgrading photoshop to CS4 a while back. They overprice upgrades just a hair. Now I'm pondering getting premeire elements 7, cheaper than upgrading premiere pro 1.5 to anything. Could use it to capture, or maybe spend a lot of time and headaches trying to figure out why windows movie maker won't recognize my cams. Would seem a little funny having to "upgrade" from premiere pro 1.5 to an elements 7 to get it to capture in something other than the cineform stuff. $100 for that or $280 to upgrade for a bunch of useless additions of CS4.

I wonder if you are both using windows movie maker on Vista and my problem is it's windows movie maker on XP.

Edit: Well trying this on a Vista machine now and it recognizes the HC1, haven't tried the HV20 yet but guessing it will recognize that as well. I hate programs that have help files that tell you options that don't exist. Don't see any way to not capture parts of tape, just whole tape. Gives me a "option" to capture whole tape or just parts....but under that heading it gives just the whole tape button which you can't even unclick or anything.

Seems it is capturing at 720x480 as well as some .dvr-ms file. Calls it micrsoft recorded tv show as type. ACtually says 1440x1080 in properties of file in windows movie maker, but when opening it in folder options and looking at properties there it says 720x480. Like it's converting it to some microsoft recorded tv file type and not original mpg file. Confusing.

Edit 2: Guess you just convert with windows movie maker. Just too bad there is no AVI setting other than 720x480. The others look to just compress it more. Hmm, probably have to download some other converter as I'm doubting premiere pro is going to play that .dvr-ms file, but maybe it will.

But surely there is a way to get the thing to capture parts. All I can do now is click next and it forces the camera to rewind the whole way then it starts. I can stop it when I want, but would then have to let it rewind again if I want to capture more lol. And I'm seeing NO way to get past that, even though help "explains" how.

Edit 3: I guess dvr-ms is just a container name implemented by microsoft and the actual video IS the same quality as what is on the camera tape. I figured it was changing it, but it doesn't seem that is the case. Seems to have just captured the mpeg file as is. Just annoying how companies do things that make them less friendly to other markets. This is showing just how stupid the whole cineform codec thing is on the premiere pro 1.5 upgrade to HDV. It's not like they couldn't just make it capture the file as is. Of course they want to keep that functionality for a purchased upgrade(CS2 in that case). So I sort of don't get why they bothered with that cineform deal at all. Here's an example of how much bigger the cineform file is. I had to send some footage out to a company and that was my only option, capture to cineform. 9 minutes of clips required more than 1 dvd(4.7 gigs) to put them on. I just captured 24 minutes from the same camera as .dvr-ms in windows movie maker for 4.4 gigs of space. That is the file before cineform opens and renders it to cineform. That is more than twice the amount of footage at even less space. Guess I'm lost on why anyone would want to do that as their only option. I'd always known HDV was pretty much the same data rate as DV since it is captured onto the same tape format. Nice to know the whole cineform method of rendering that as you capture isn't the only option. I mean really, if I wanted to make a dvd with premiere pro 1.5 I'd need to capture the files to my computer at that far increased size, as opposed to the native size/format smaller methods. Doubt I'll keep using this dvr-ms method but nice to know how well it works. Just need to test the whole HV20 issue with it now, but guessing it will work great and that glitching stuff will go away.

Thanks again for the info/insight.

 

[Darren Addy]

Sorry to go back to basics, but unless I missed it you haven't told us how you connect the Canon to the computer. You are using (Firewire), right?

From the Canon web site:

To download high definition video from your HDV Camcorder to your computer, you will need the following:

* A computer with a working IEEE-1394 (Firewire) port
* HD capable Digital Video capture and editing software. An example of this would be Adobe Premiere or Sony Vegas Video.
* An HD capture plug-in for your chosen capture and editing software.




What is required to download standard definition video from my HDV Camcorder to my computer running Windows XP?

To download standard definition video from your HDV Camcorder to your computer, you will need the following:

* A computer with a working IEEE-1394 (Firewire) port
* Digital Video capture and editing software. An example of this would be Windows Movie Maker, which is bundled with Windows XP.

In addition, it looks like pretty stringent hard drive requirements listed "to import HDV" on the Premiere Pro 1.5.1 HD capture plug-in page:

For HDV capture and export: OHCI-compatible IEEE 1394 interface and dedicated large-capacity 7200 RPM UDMA 133 IDE/SATA, or SCSI hard disk capable of sustained rates up to 20MB/s (for best performance use a RAID0 array with two or more drives)

Check out all the specs on that page and confirm that your system meets the requirements.

You might also try an alternative way to capture the video (use Premiere Pro 1.5.1 for editing, but not capture). One (free) way is to use HDVsplit. If HDVsplit doesn't recognize your camera you probably don't have up-to-date
DirectX End-User Runtime. This is the method this guy used successfully.

 

[James Langford]

When using Movie Maker, a full 65 or whatever minute tape will I think take up about 12 Gbs for the source file. You can then render that into several different types of output files. Be warned that rendering a full 24fps 1080P avi file will take a long time. On my 3.0 Ghz quad core it takes over an hour. The final output quality will be good though. Movie Maker doesn't have a lot of fancy options, but it does work well for being free.

Good luck,

James

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Thanks for the further info. I've tried the HV20 on a different machine with vista, so it has the right version of windows movie maker. It captured just find on there. For whatever reason my computer just wants to struggle with HDV from the HV20, but only in certain tape sections, when doing the stupid Cineform deal on Premiere pro 1.5. And for whatever reason from the Sony HC1 HDV it does fine. I need a new PC anyway, so I'm just going to wait to upgrade before thinking mroe about a fix.

I found last night this second, vibrating like mad, video card also runs HOT as hell as it tries to shove out 1920x1280 via DVI. I was told PCI slots not PCI express are under powered. So I already know I have to upgrade anyway, thanks to the monitor/vid card deal. Right now if I touch the vid card it will burn your finger. Not thinking that is terribly normal.

Anyway, main reason I'm posting is to mention something I found with the whole windows movie maker DVR-MS file naming. If you dowload something called DVRMSToolbox you can strip that microsoft container and get that actual mpeg file inside it, the same thing that came from you camera. This way no converting to something else first, no compressing at all. Just have to use that and convert using dvr-ms to mpeg with ffmpeg. Doesn't take long at all either. And leaves you with a much more compatible mpeg file....instead of the dvr-ms deal and is lossless.