Blu-ray/HD yet?

[Mark Blue]

Did you get that Sexy Plexy installed yet H?

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Did you get that Sexy Plexy installed yet H?

Yeah it's been in the computer for a few days. All I've done with it was make sure it worked/played a video. Shouldn't be long and I'll be tackling the whole blu-ray deal. Got some stuff to square away first. Too many new things this year, sigh.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Headaches are starting quickly as I try the blu-ray route now. After an extended list of new issues just for the damn dvd route.

Using Vegas Movie Studio and Sony's DVD architect for authoring. Each time I'd select and try a blu-ray preset DVD architect would then insist I needed to re-encode those clips again. Lovely after a 4 hour encode on a 30 minute clip. Took a tiny clip and everything I threw at it it wanted to re-encode. At least anything WITH audio.

I believe how I tried the one video stream only it wanted to re-encode it too. Well however that worked, I now have it taking a video stream converted clip from my timeline without insisting I re-encode the thing for blu-ray. Turns out you aren't supposed to use the same codec for audio as you did for video or something, so you are supposed to make a clip for video and a clip for the audio. If you name them the same when you open it in DVD architect it will bring the audio file over automatically. Doh, what a looongg headache this took to track down and figure out. Otherwise the thing was just going to insist on compressing the already compressed/rendered chase clip.

Then the audio. Sounds like AC3 is most prefered, PCM is uncompressed and takes up more space...and mp2 sounds like isn't as compatible/supported. So I do AC3 and try and take that audio over with that video file. But no, DVD Architect insists it be "compressed" to PCM. lol compressing it to a much bigger file. It leaves me no option in the DVD architect for anything but PCM. So I think I got the tricks down now. Lordy can one jump through a billion hoops and read a billion unrelated threads before figuring out just what the damn catch is. Give all these freaking templates, of blu-ray supported codecs and render options....but gray out the damn include audio box on most of them. I don't think it would even take the mp4 video stream one either. I think it wanted either mp2 or AVC for blu-ray in there. Use mp4 and it would spit out the whole "I'm going to compress this again to a supported format" deal. That said I think AVC IS mpeg4. It must not like the extension.

Anyway, anyone that uses this ap this year and tries blu-ray, might want to just encode to Sony AVC and select one of the blu-ray video stream templates. Then after that render the audio file as PCM(not that it would list PCM in there!!!!!......had to figure out WAV IS PCM and select the WAV template in Vegas Movie Studio....like they tried to make things the most confusing for the not educated yet folks..by calling it PCM in architect then not listing PCM for a choice in regular movie studio) and name it the same as teh video file in the same folder.

Can't say I'm overly a fan of Vegas at this point lol. Authoring the menu itself has been a little goofy and apparently made harder to do than was needed. Made a submenu for selecting the chase clip but heck if I can get it to after that clip is done, play the next one in line. No it just comes back to that select chase menu. I did figure out the "playlist" deal so you can have a "play all" button and get them to play in order that way. Just ain't gotten the submenu to select chase clip to just continue to the next clip if a person went that route.

Dreading buring this first blu-ray trial here shortly. Not that I even know what folders need to be there for best compatibility etc.

It is amazing how many threads one has to read through with this sort of trouble shooting to get what they wanted. It's crazy just how many high returns on google are forum threads from like 2001, 2002 keying in on some words for dvd stuff...that are of no help. It will be most annoying to finish this, not touch it for another year....then next year forget all the ins and outs needed to make it a lot easier.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Hitting some serious walls in Vegas Movie Studio Platinum HD 10 going to blu-ray and I'm more and more wondering if they did this on purpose, crippling things. I don't see why on Earth I'd be hitting all the quirkly little issues if they weren't purposely implemented this way, wanting people that want more to go to Pro. Ones that are really really pissing me off.

In TMPGEnc's encoder it tells me using PCM for audio is clear but requires a high bit rate and not all players will keep up. In this sony DVD architect for blu-ray that is all it will let you go to.

The video aspect however is far far more full of quarks/issues. The only one it is taking from me is under the Sony AVC tab listing behind it(mp4, m2ts, avc) like that. I can get a file with an AVC extension that when imported to DVD architect it won't force it to be re-encoded again. But in the settings for the thing in vegas it limits it to 20mbps fixed bit rate without variable options. I used the 16mbps template for the trial I just burned and it's not cutting it, that is for sure. It might be the Sony encoder, or the fixed rate, or being that low. I don't know but it was pretty bad in low detail areas with massive blocks and bands.

So I try the Main Concept AVC/AAC(mp4) option written just like that. In there if I want I can pick up to 240 mbps if I so desired!, not that the blu-ray players would play it for all I know. But it's unlimited mostly and has variable bit rate and 2 pass options. In that Sony one it has a system tab that you can chose from the 3 optoins...mp4, mp2, avc. BUt in this MainConcept one....that has AVC in its freaking title....it's just mp4. But that is confusing cause many list AVC as being Mpeg4. And now here is the problem. DVD architect ONLY wants either mpeg2 or AVC. Put something with mp4 on there and it forces to it to be re-encoded which is not good. Even if I change the extension from mp4 to avc it still knows and says re-encode it. The only freaking thing I can find in Vegas to stick on there and not be re-encoded is a limited setting bitch, no variable and fixed under 20mbps...and it's a Sony encoder and looked pretty bad at 16mbps. And if AVC IS MP4 anyway.............why is that thing such a bitch and insisting whenever I stick any MP4 file that it gets re-encoded, presumable down to mpeg2...which it likes along with "AVC"(quotes cause again AVC is supposedly MPEG4...but hell if it likes .mp4 files or even .mp4 files after I changed the extension to .avc.

More and more certain DVD architect for blu-ray is worse than a joke. The whole freaking AVC MP4 naming crap is getting annoying too. Even the blu-ray options in TMPGEnc 4.0 express I have are Mpeg2 or heck I think the extnesion simply said .mpg. I can't even remember if that trial worked without DVD architect saying it had to be re-encoded.

Aaaaarrrrghhhh good lord. If it's a supported blu-ray format, audio or video......don't force the freaking thing to be re-encoded!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Driving me nuts. And if you are going to Vegas and have encoding options in your regular ap.....don't cripple the only one that works for your blu-ray creation software!!!!! I need a tornado to drive into asap.


Edit: Just typing crap on here as I go/read as I will be gone tomorrow and surely not remember lol.

More reading it seems like blu-ray supports up to 40mbps but 25 or less might be more of a safe zone and players stuttering on more than that. Perhaps that is why only the one route from Vegas, the crippled 20 mbps or less one...while given no variable bit rate option...is all it is letting me take into authoring without recompressing it. Don't know why it is forcing pcm only for audio though, but think I read it was most compatible....while TMPGEnc encoder had the note its higher bit rate might choke some players some. Guessing the only route left that I can see is TMPGEnc 4 express encoder since there are at least variable bit rate options...but looks like the blu-ray tab in there wants to do it in mpeg2...which DVD architect likes anyway. Just had read of the 3 main ones, mpeg 2, VC-1 and AVC(mpeg4 doh) mpeg2 had the lesser quality level. Sucks that not all aps give all the optoins and if they have them the damn authoring ap may not want you using them anyway. Least there may be a solution...TMPGEnc encoder to mpeg2 for the job. I don't see how that option in Vegas is going to come close to being good enough if 16mbps from it was THAT bad.

 

[Mark Blue]

Wow, that sounds like a nightmare H. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have any useful advice to offer you as I have no experience in doing what you are attempting to do. I better get myself set up to do Blu-ray soon though, so I'm not so far behind the curve because I have an HD camcorder now (Canon HV40). After reading what you've been through I'm kind of reluctant now, but not so much so that I would throw the white towel in the ring.

It would seem that one software application could do everything that's needed, but you are so far ahead of me at this point that who am I to say.
Please refresh my memory on one thing. Do you shoot with a Canon HV30 or did you buy a Sony model last spring. I can't remember what you use now.

Surely there is someone on this forum who has burned HD footage to Blu-ray that can help. If you are the first on Stormtrack I'll be really surprised, especially since HD content has been around for a few years now. In the meantime I'll do some looking around and ask where the best assistance is found for burning Blu-ray on a couple of other forums to see if anyone has suggestions.

After posting I found this forum: http://www.videohelp.com/hd

Looked like some helpful information there so I thought I'd throw it into this thread (like you had mentioned).

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

It was the HV20 and the Sony HC1 Mark, but this spring got the Panasonic TM700 which shoots AVCHD. I know there are ways to edit that stuff so it can end up on the blu-ray as the same exact file and quality as is on the camera, given that it's mpeg4. As long as you did no correcting of anything like exposure or color. Thing was nuclear with colors and a bunch of other crap so wound up converting to cineform AVI and rendering from there.

Seems I got the best there is to get on the thing now, at least via vegas movie studio platinum HD. 20 mbps as avc. Wound up around 18 gigs for 1hr 52 minute movie. The burner is burning them like a champ. Getting them done to 4x media at about 9 minutes. 6x media just way too pricey and no need if they can be done in 9 minutes on 4x anyway. Even 4x stuff gets pricey depending on brand. Using some ridata at the moment on trial stuff. I believe the occasional gradient banding I was seeing is thanks to my HD tv. I now see that is common on many HD LCDs just like monitors. Pretty lame given how much I paid for that Sony 42 inch a couple years ago now. Meanwhile if I watch it on my parent's slightly newer Sony HD LCD it's about impossible to see any banding other than the rare scene the camera codec/compression recorded it in the first place.

It's interesting I'm maxing out the SD DVD with this 1hr 52 minutes using 5200 variable bit rate. I've known that amount of time is about the max on a single layer dvd with some good encoding. 20 mbps bit rate via AVC for the Blu-ray appears the max I can get out of Vegas which is more than enough if done right by the encoder(given that is more than the camera records at anyway). And I'm at 18 gigs out of the 23 available on the blu-ray disc. So make a blu-ray and you can stick some extras on there if you want lol. Kinda feels like a waste leaving 5 gigs blank on the disc. I'd ramp the encoder up more if it would let me. It has some options that you can go a lot higher, but the second you stick that file into DVD architect to author it, it tells you it is going to recompress it....which you for sure do not want to be doing. Blu-ray spec says to 40 mbps so seems lame it sticks you at 20 max even if it is enough. Might have to look into that again now that I'm mostly done with things and feel more free lol. So don't quote me for sure it can't be done via that vegas at more than 20 mbps avc. I think if I could do it all over again I'd go through TMPGEnc for all of it. It's just difficult to edit AVCHD files other than simple cuts as it will stutter like made in the preview. Since it has to work harder to decode that than AVIs.

 

[Scott Weberpal]

We (the Convective Addiction guys) will have a limited number to Blu-ray discs available for our May 22 DVD. We are having a professional production company do duplications from (I believe) BD-R. We should have those in a week or so and we'll provide some feedback as far as if there are any problems with compatibility or anyone having any problems with them playing.

We're keeping our fingers crossed that we don't have to issue a bunch of refunds because the duplications aren't compatible with some players.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

http://reviews.cnet.com/blu-ray-dvd-players/

Fwiw there's a pretty good location to search players and BD-r specs. From the bit of glancing I did BD-r is extremely supported. Course then there is the whole BDMV or BDAV deal where BDAV was supposed to be non-menu based straight video and more supported at first. Then I read BDAV can contain menus. Got me, but when I stick mine in my player it says BDMV as it pops up.

 

[Rob H]

One thing that would be *awesome*, is if a DIVX or other compressed (ie. digital device) version of the video was included with a Blu-Ray purchase. A lot of the studio releases are doing this and it's very handy.

I want to see these storms in high def on my living room TV, but then I can't watch them anywhere else if I only have the Blu-ray copy. I can't bring myself to buy both standard and high-def versions, so I'm really torn on this decision.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Interesting Robert, so they'd be shipping two discs to do this? Seems for sure they'd have to if that was the issue, pc playback.

So far on mine I have a decent ratio/set to go by on SD vs HD buyers. I could try and add them up but the stack I sent first and the few more I have for orders now, suggest it's around 5 in 6 buying the SD version. I thought this would be a much closer to 50/50 thing than it is.