Basic First Aid as a class addition?

[Shawn Gossman]

I posted this on my local spotter forum and am interested what more have to say about it.

What do you think of basic first aid such as basic child and adult CPR and stuff like that being taught with the storm spotter classes? i understand that we spotters are not exactly emergency personnel but that is not really the reason I think we should be taught it as well. the reason is because often many times we are right in the disaster area because we were spotting close by or surveying for our community/NWS/EMA/etc. and we may arrive to the injured before emergency services get there...

Now as a former security guard, we were taught a very moderate first aid training and encouraged to use it before emergency personnel got there because the quicker aid is used the quicker lives are saved... i feel this same way about spotters at least knowing basic CPR

How do you all feel about this?

 

[rdale]

I think that stuff should be suggested, along with resources people can easily contact to sign up, but no way should that be taught in storm spotter classes.

 

[Jason Bolt]

I would agree. Let the storm spotter class just cover storm spotting.

There seems to be a trend in emergency services that cross training into all areas is better. It's not. Especially when using volunteers. You will find that some people may be outstanding storm spotters but have zero desire to do anything medical. They shouldn't be forced to. We have systems in place to deal with injuries, even mass casualty situations after storms. For those would like to help after the spotting ends, refer them to a CERT program or EMS unit's volunteer reserve program. Instead of being another group in the mix after storms maybe we can just concentrate on training the best possible spotters.

 

[Karen St John]

Wouldn't it be better to take these classes because someone in your group may be injured when you chase, or someone may need help at work, at school, in church or the synagogue, wherever... and not because we may be first responders during a spotter deployment.

I know I need to re-certify. Those cards in my purse are old...still have leech training on them.

 

[Zachary Lassiter]

I know first aid.

I know storm spotting

I am learning storm chasing

There all different fields

 

[J Tyler]

My wife and I have talked a LOT about this subject. We are hybrid spotters/chasers and know the day will come when we are following a large tornado that goes thru a populated area. In Greensburg in 2007, the local police and fire services (and hospital) were totally destroyed. Not a single car in town was driveable, and spotters were the first to drive into town right behind the tornado. In that case, I can't imagine continuing to follow the storm. We want to be trained so we can be an assett in that situation instead of getting in the way.

This is why we plan to sign up for the next CERT training session. It is a LOT of weekends to give up, but I think it will be worth it to us. For anyone not familiar, google Community Emergency Responce Team.

 

[Jason Foster]

If it is Skywarn specific class, no! Skywarn is only about storms and reporting. If a group hosting the skywarn class wants to have an "event" kind of situation and have all kinds of other stuff...fine. Spotter groups operating outside of Skywarn should be allowed to do whatever they want. But Skywarn classes need to follow NWS mandates and structure and protocols.

 

[Marcus Hicks]

Do not be fooled Basic CPR is in no way close to tring one needs to be a first responder. There are seperate classes for that. I think every one should have CPR training but understand what it is Cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) is an emergency procedure for people in cardiac arrest or, in some circumstances, respiratory arrest. So unless your expectations coming through a town where everyone is having a heart attack you'll find out you just in the way. Far more to being a first responder. I think we sometimes get confused as to what spotting is. Want to save a life, join the fire dept, CERT or some other disaster org. Skywarn is for weather spotting and reporting.

 

[Zachary Lassiter]

Yea CPR and basic first aid is going to be pretty much useless in a disaster such as a tornado hit. I've been through MFR and the cert stuff. There different animals and frankly I would not trust a CERT trained individual to put a band-aid on my knee with their training

 

[rdale]

frankly I would not trust a CERT trained individual to put a band-aid on my knee with their training

I'm guessing you went to the wrong class. CERT training doesn't involve first-aid. It involved mass casualty triage, not bandaids.

 

[ChrisMartin]

knowing first aid for you & your chase parters would be good. however, as a paramedic, i would suggest being careful going around helping/treating people. we live in a very litigious society & good samaritan law only helps you so much. i know everyone would have the best of intentions, but it is not worth getting sued over. definitely get cpr certified, but much more & i would be careful.

 

[Jason Bolt]

Just to clarify, I am saying I don't think first aid training should be a mandatory incorporated part of spotter training. It seemed to turn into a thread full of testimonials as to why everyone has decided to get medical training. Awesome. The OP's question, and a couple answers were dealing with whether or not it should be MANDATORY. It shouldn't. Personal choice only. Like Chris, I have been in EMS for fifteen years. From working on an ambulance, to administration, to state level involvement, to training new paramedics I have seen a little. It's not for everyone. I've seen many fire and police departments along with other organizations try to force a level of medical training onto the membership. It usually has many negative consequences and often leads to a loss of volunteers. If anyone has actually read this far I predict that the next five responses won't debate the issue but will be from people telling us all why they personally got medical training

 

[Amanda Farnham]

To say that first aid would be useless is a sad thing. Basic First Aid will help you be able to recognize emergencies and respond accordingly. Having additional knowledge in case you come across a person in need before emergency services arrives can help that person. It also helps people relax a bit if you tell them you are trained in First Aid. A lot of Chapters offer training online now. It can never be "useless" to help another person in need.

If you wanted to get into further training you could take Responding to Emergencies through the Red Cross. It is more advanced than the basic first aid class.

CERT Training is good for those who want to help with organizing and running large scale disaster scenes. CERT courses can vary from group to group, but I know that our local classes do include CPR and first aid. To my knowledge no one has asked to be excluded from that portion.

Yea CPR and basic first aid is going to be pretty much useless in a disaster such as a tornado hit. I've been through MFR and the cert stuff. There different animals and frankly I would not trust a CERT trained individual to put a band-aid on my knee with their training

 

[Zachary Lassiter]

You all want to learn CPR???

Well here is a very refreshing two minute course on it

http://www.thezach.net/blog/learn-cpr/

 

[Amanda Farnham]

I'm glad you are so confident about it. That's great. There might be others who aren't and want a bit more than a 2 minute course on it.

You all want to learn CPR???

Well here is a very refreshing two minute course on it

http://www.thezach.net/blog/learn-cpr/

 

[Zachary Lassiter]

I'm glad you are so confident about it. That's great. There might be others who aren't and want a bit more than a 2 minute course on it.

I'll have to say after I watched the video I was very refreshed

 

[Amanda Farnham]

Yes, I can see how relevant it is.

 

[MatthewCarman]

It would be nice to know how to do first aid and CPR properly. You never know when you may need to use it.

Zach, 2 minutes is not enough time to learn anything. Why not make a 10 minute or 30 minute video? I feel a 2 minute video is a waste of time.

 

[Bart_Comstock]

Yea CPR and basic first aid is going to be pretty much useless in a disaster such as a tornado hit.

I fail to see how basic first aid and CPR would be useless after a tornado has impacted a area. There are all sorts of scenarios I can think of where CPR or basic first aid would be helpful. Not all tornado related injuries will be serious enough that basic first aid will be very helpful.

A proper first aid course will cover how to deal with puncture wounds, cuts and scraps, bruising, shock, head and neck injuries, fractures, and nose bleeds. All of these are likely to be found in a moderate to serious disaster site. Even electrical shock is covered which is still a possibility if someone is in a damaged structure that still has power. With a proper first aid course you will also learn how to use barriers and antiseptics which will protect both you and the person you are assisting.

Even breathless CPR and traditional CPR would be potentially life saving if a person looses consciousness and their falls into cardiac arrest. I can think of many cases where someone couldn't handle the stress and shock of a disaster and died as the result of a heart attack.

I am a PADI certified rescue diver and a certified first responder with training in both primary and secondary care and the use of an AED.

knowing first aid for you & your chase parters would be good. however, as a paramedic, i would suggest being careful going around helping/treating people. we live in a very litigious society & good samaritan law only helps you so much. i know everyone would have the best of intentions, but it is not worth getting sued over. definitely get cpr certified, but much more & i would be careful.

From what I understand if you only did what was with in your power and that you have been trained in with out any criminal negligence you are protected by the good samaritan laws. It is people who get certified then do thinks they were not trained in or do not execute the proper way to apply the treatment they are giving that results in harm to life or property that can be sued for damages or tried criminally.

 

[Paul Racine]

I would have to say that First Aid would be something that actually would be important to learn not only for disaster situations but for real life as well. CPR on the other hand is a great tool to know but I do not see how it would really be useful in a MCI type incident in which a tornado would be. Having been in EMS/Fire scene as a Paramedic and EMT for 20+ years I do have a thought/insight on this.

During a MCI Mass Casualty Incident patients are classified on the METTAG system which uses a simple method of classifying patients by their injuries and color coding them.

Black signifies Deceased patients or those alive with obvious fatal and non resuscitatable injuries. This is where I place cardiac arrest victims due to the fact of taking so many resources to help 1 person vs trying to save many.

Red signifies Severe patients that need immediate treatment/transport such as these badly bleeding, respiratory problems, burns etc

Yellow signifies secondary/delayed patients which means patients broken bones, non major or arterial bleeding, minor burns, etc

Green basically is walking wounded which doesn't mean that they aren't injured but do not need immediate help for their non-life threatening injuries.

Someone that was having a heart attack after a major disaster such as a tornado would probably be having one based on 2 probable factors:

1) they had pre-existing heart conditions that made them more succeptable to a heart attack/arrest and therefor not a great survivability rate
2) traumatic arrest which means that a major injury caused the cardiac arrest and they are more or less unsalvageable.

I personally would not and have not "wasted" any of my time with cardiac arrest victims during a MCI or major event. I know that in reality most people do not survive, I have had saves in my career but not that many or they were young, lucky, etc. Many more people have been saved/helped by first aid skills than by CPR.

You can take a basic first aid class in about 20 hours, EMT classes are about 150 hours in length and much more in depth. Both of these would provide great real life type skills that not only can be used in a disaster but in every day life as well. I personally would rather have people helping me with first aid type skills at an incident than CPR. Maybe I am the exception to the rule or a realist but I know the outcome of Cardiac Arrest 1st hand many times over. I am not saying that it is not a great skill to know by any means but in reality first aid is much better to know.

This is just my 2 cents on this after many years in the business of saving peoples lives.

Sorry if my train of thought is all over the place here but my mind works like that usually.

 

[Karen St John]

Ideally, your chase team won't be tag carrying members of an MCI. But they may run afoul physically themselves. If for no other reason than the people you keep around you, First Aid and CPR are useful.

If there is a Mass Casualty Incident, I would rather just do whatever I am told to do by the authorized emergency personnel, and stick with that. If the responders want coffee, I'll brew it, and let them do their job. If they want me out of the way, I'm on my way.

 

[Shawn Gossman]

Well glad to see my topic is popular

I just started this topic because many professions (not that im calling spotting a profession) are utilizing it and even schools are teaching its students. I think its a good thing for everyone to know.

I work in the coal mines and we get trained in advanced CPR, AED and first aid but then again, if you get hurt down there, you most likely either need quick care and rescue or a body bag.

 

[Paul Racine]

Ideally, your chase team won't be tag carrying members of an MCI. But they may run afoul physically themselves. If for no other reason than the people you keep around you, First Aid and CPR are useful.

If there is a Mass Casualty Incident, I would rather just do whatever I am told to do by the authorized emergency personnel, and stick with that. If the responders want coffee, I'll brew it, and let them do their job. If they want me out of the way, I'm on my way.

I was not implying that they would be card carrying members I was just trying to point out the usefulness of First Aid over CPR.

 

[Karen St John]

I was not implying that they would be card carrying members I was just trying to point out the usefulness of First Aid over CPR.

I'm just saying that as a non professional, I shouldn't be in the business of triaging MCI's, that's all.

I'm sure I would cause more harm than good, so I would rather do what I am directed to do, or have first hand knowledge: such as people I am with...if I see them struck by lightning, at least I can proceed knowledgeably from there...