An Appeal for Civility

[Mike Hollingshead]

Is rambling(some humorous) really that bad? Lock the thread, people are rambling.

Seems some points have been lost on the mods. People are rather nicely shooting the **** now, and bam, hammer comes down at this of all points in the thread. Just seems odd to me I guess.

I guess yeah one can shoot the **** in bar and grill, but really, is it that big of a deal if some was going on nicely in this one now? Not like this thread is in the way of a massive amount of important weather to be talked about. Given the last entry in the bottom thread on page 1 of the weather section is a month old now.

IMO reading people shooting the **** is far better than returning to empty forum sections...which are empty for a reason. Only so much weather one can talk about. Far off typhoons and freeze and foilage ain't gonna cut it. Chase setups and reports are filled in those sections.

Not asking for a million off topic threads in forum sections, just it seems it is really not important to lock this one down now in stormtrack news and announcements. I do not get the benefit at all.

It is this sort of stuff that turns me off from a site. Rapidly takes the fun out of it in a big way for me. And obviously it's not a huge deal if this thread is no more. I guess it's the whole bothering to shut it down that is annoying. Probably because it seems to happen just when some people are actually having fun and doing no harm to anyone.

 

[Tim Vasquez]

I agree Stormtrack is not what it used to be. This is because the community is much larger. You usually find people ranting on their soapbox in the cities, not in small towns. Is this because there's more discontented people in the city? No, it's simply because the big city brings more people of different backgrounds and perspectives together. What we gain here in complaints we also gain in knowledge and activity. Also the past always looks better for some reason... rarely do we look back and think "man, our community really sucked back in those years".

Mike -- usually when it's proposed to close a thread it's because it's requiring too much moderation work, and right now we are shorthanded (which we are going to fix shortly). There's also a certain irritation factor when the same 3 or 4 people continue reiterating and rehashing the same point over and over (very normal for a thread), which sometimes grates on others and gets us concerned of an impending flame war. I'm not implying it's happening here; I haven't done a mental tally or anything, but it does happen a lot.

On the same token I do agree that closing a thread because we feel like it is censorship and it's something we try to avoid. My intent is for us to leave this thread open as long as most of the participants avoid snarking and petty squabbling. I will support suspension of anyone who derails the thread into a flame war, even if someone says "that's a stupid idea, Joe" (attacking the idea but condemning Joe) or "people like you do X and Y". This comes back to attacking the point, not the person. Thread closures are usually because we lack time to moderate problem areas and not really because we've simply had it.

Tim

 

[Jason Foster]

I'll start improving things by apologizing to you Jason for snapping out. I shouldn't let anything said in an internet forum get to me but it did and feel bad for it. Apology also goes out to anyone else who was annoyed or bothered by my dialogue. Internet forums are very effective at skewing perceptions and wrecking reputations and I do not wish to perpetuate any form of negativity either towards myself or anyone else.

Which Jason, Paul? LOL, too many Jason's here...have to be specific. Because if you snapped at me...I missed it completely?

 

[Chris Nuttall]

Is rambling(some humorous) really that bad? Lock the thread, people are rambling.

Seems some points have been lost on the mods. People are rather nicely shooting the **** now, and bam, hammer comes down at this of all points in the thread. Just seems odd to me I guess.

I guess yeah one can shoot the **** in bar and grill, but really, is it that big of a deal if some was going on nicely in this one now? Not like this thread is in the way of a massive amount of important weather to be talked about. Given the last entry in the bottom thread on page 1 of the weather section is a month old now.

IMO reading people shooting the **** is far better than returning to empty forum sections...which are empty for a reason. Only so much weather one can talk about. Far off typhoons and freeze and foilage ain't gonna cut it. Chase setups and reports are filled in those sections.

Not asking for a million off topic threads in forum sections, just it seems it is really not important to lock this one down now in stormtrack news and announcements. I do not get the benefit at all.

It is this sort of stuff that turns me off from a site. Rapidly takes the fun out of it in a big way for me. And obviously it's not a huge deal if this thread is no more. I guess it's the whole bothering to shut it down that is annoying. Probably because it seems to happen just when some people are actually having fun and doing no harm to anyone.

My job as a moderator is to enforce the rules and help keep the discussions on track. This thread was started to discuss a serious problem that we were having here at ST and my intent was to keep it focused. With the last several posts being nothing but "shooting the sh*t" and several others that were simply rehases and reiterations, I assumed that the discussion had run its course.

Obviously, I'm wrong. Since Tim is inclined to let the thread stay open barring any flames, I'll go with that.

I never based my original decision about closing this thread around being pissy, tired of the discussion, or having trouble keeping control due to flaming. Quite the contrary. This has been a terrific thread allowing people to voice their opinions about what they think of Stormtrack and how they feel this place should be run.

For every comment I get about modding too loosely, I get another one saying I mod with an iron fist.

:sigh:

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Is it a bad idea to just not moderate until someone flags/reports a thread? Seems it would make life easier for people...the mods.

It seems like ST always ends up doing the same sequence of steps after there's some "troubling" thread. Then it is that they need more mods and need to crack down harder. I just wonder why it can't work to just bother moderating once someone flags something.

Something I'll never understand, having to report some thread and not just go to a different thread if it bugs you so. Just think if that happened more often. Most things have ran their course before they are shut down as it is anyway. So it just seems one could run a moderation by doing so when someone bothers flagging something. I think if I was a mod, I'd want someone paying me to bother having to follow along enough to preempt close on everything. But it doesn't seem overly worth it anyway to me.

This reminds me a bit of chatrooms and chasing. There are always those that want no swearing at all, no off topic talk, and just weather weather weather. It never works and more often than not, it's those that don't talk at all to begin with that want it like this. I think a person should be happy with 80% off topic and 20% topic....especially when it is already with 100% people with the same interest/storms. I think when it is moderated to keep on topic that it is a very very tiny fraction of people on here that are trying to be pleased. So why bother. Or maybe I'm ass backward too lol.

 

[Chris Nuttall]

Is it a bad idea to just not moderate until someone flags/reports a thread? Seems it would make life easier for people...the mods.

Yeah, this is when we get those "you need to mod more heavily and take control of this board" comments...lol. Believe me, I've tried it both approaches to modding. Each method has its own pros and cons. I'm still trying to figure out the right mix of the two.

This is where I've learned to admire people that work for a living in a mediation-type of duty, like teachers or heads of committees. Trying to keep control of a tense situation involving people with a wide range of personalities is definitely a tough job.

 

[Jason Boggs]

Trying to keep control of a tense situation involving people with a wide range of personalities is definitely a tough job.

Yea, try being a correctional officer with 4,000 inmates in a maximum security facility! It's not easy. A simple rule I was taught when I started in corrections is this. Be firm fair and consistent. That rule usually works pretty well in most situations when dealing with lots of people in and out of a prison environment.

 

[Shane Adams]

Be firm fair and consistent. That rule usually works pretty well in most situations when dealing with lots of people in and out of a prison environment.

Somehow I don't think that philosophy transfers to StormTrack.

What I can see it doing is running off members who believe in free speech, sharing opinions, and above all else - free thinking. I understand it's a private forum (that's been drilled into my head to death), but there comes a point when you need to decide who you want your members to be. I would've loved the opportunity to get in on this conversation days ago, but unfortunately I was serving my time for having an opinion that differed from the majority and publicly sharing it. I can promise all of you right now, I will not change who I am for a forum.

I've contributed more than my share of knowledge and experience over the many years I've been a member of this forum, and have done a helluva lot more good than "bad". But if moderation wants to scold me for having an opinion, so be it....but you don't get it both ways. You can tolerate me for who I am, good or bad, or you can ban me from this forum permanently. Believe me, I'm not backing down one bit and there WILL come the time when you'll have to make this decision.

 

[Joshua Nall]

Another word for civil is polite. Civility is the original topic of this thread. There is such a thing as civility, and it is a good thing. Being polite is a good thing. We all have our opinions and I enjoy people that are plain talkers, that just say what they feel needs to be said... but I reckon all can be polite about it... that's all. There's no reason to go where things seem to end up going. It's immature, grade school type stuff. FWIW, this is the only forum I'm on, and even before I joined it's really the only thing that bothered me. A lot of what's said when conflict arises would never be said in person, or it would be said in a different way.

Josh

 

[Shane Adams]

A lot of what's said when conflict arises would never be said in person, or it would be said in a different way.

That's an excellent point, however, my comment about "he who shall not be named" is akin to a comment I'd make in the real world, in casual conversation, regardless of the crowd. Most of the "issues" I've been involved with on here are cases where I simply made a comment or shared an opinion and then the rebuttle caused a stir. I can't control how people react to what I say, and with all the talk I've read the past few days about "politeness" and "turning the other cheek" and "taking a second to gather your emotions before hitting 'send'", you'd think if anything, a comment that people felt was impolite or whatever, would simply be ignored (the way they are in the real world).

I say what I think regardless, because it's my opinion. I don't "troll" or whatever it is internet geeks call it. I say what I say to get a point across; I could care less what the reaction is (or couldn't care less [thanks Joey]). But the funny thing is, like Joshua said, people usually don't say things or react in the real world the way they do on here. For all the fuss my comment ignited on here last week, the same scenario in the real world at a chaser party or a chase convergence would've been met with crickets.

So I pose the question: who's the problem here? Someone like me who just is who he is, regardless? Or the hordes of people who'll "step up" online but would otherwise bite their tongue? Seems if keeping this forum "civil" is a priority, then the larger issue would be the latter.

 

[Adam Lucio]

People will always feel tougher behind the keyboard. Its easy to come home after having a bad day and snap off about something that otherwise you wouldn't care about. Especially for those who aren't very social and lack a good deal of friends and family to vent off about.

The other problem I see is this community is very clique-ish. Hell even the other day someone told me "I cant hate on ____ anymore because ___ and ___ love him for some reason." To me that is just sad...

Me I stay away from almost all major flame wars. The sooner people realize and ACCEPT the fact that they will NEVER be able to please everyone...the easier their life will become. Also, too many people value what people think of them...me I could care less...love me hate me Im going to do what I do the way I want to do it.

Although I will say this...if there is a chaser keg-a-thon and Im not invited...I will be upset.

 

[Joe beier]

People will always feel tougher behind the keyboard. Its easy to come home after having a bad day and snap off about something that otherwise you wouldn't care about. Especially for those who aren't very social and lack a good deal of friends and family to vent off about.

The other problem I see is this community is very clique-ish. Hell even the other day someone told me "I cant hate on ____ anymore because ___ and ___ love him for some reason." To me that is just sad...

Me I stay away from almost all major flame wars. The sooner people realize and ACCEPT the fact that they will NEVER be able to please everyone...the easier their life will become. Also, too many people value what people think of them...me I could care less...love me hate me Im going to do what I do the way I want to do it.

Although I will say this...if there is a chaser keg-a-thon and Im not invited...I will be upset.

Amen, preach it. Really couldn't have put it any better myself. Some people get far too serious and on the other end some people take things too seriously as well.

 

[Melanie Kern-Favilla]

You are missing the point to this whole ordeal. It is about the freedom to express opinions for what one believes in and to stand up for one selves.

If this is how you are taking this situation then your lack of common sense disgust me.

This forum does not equate the stairs of the US Capitol. You can't say whatever you want here. I'm sure that was written in the Terms when you signed up.

EDIT: I see someone already pointed out the TOS...My bad.

 

[Melanie Kern-Favilla]

...If you don't feel comfortable discussing weather in the other threads, perhaps you should reevaluate your need for this forum.

Steve, not everyone here is on your level of chasing and wx-related knowledge. There are some things that I'm comfortable discussing wx-wise and some threads that I know to stay away from for fear of sounding like a complete ass and thereby opening myself up to being attacked (here?! attacked?!).

IMHO, this forum is here for storm chasing discussions, as well as a place for less knowledgeable individuals to learn. I lurk a lot and have learned a lot. Does that mean that I don't belong here?

 

[Chad Berryhill]

Storm Track Members and Moderators,

I would like to thank Lanny Dean, Randy Cooper, Joey Ketchum and anyone else that stood up for me.

Now, I have been reading all the post on this thread. Some post I agree with, some I have not, but that is the beauty of forums. I became a member early this year, hoping to find advice and encouragement toward this art, sport, or whatever you want to call "storm chasing". My approach was simple, learn something, so I can enjoy mother nature without putting myself and others in danger. The last thing I would want to do is get in the way.

With that said, I began looking around this place and seeing how posts and threads were/are handled. I seen some things that I personally didn't care for. I had some post that would suddenly vanish. They were non-inflammatory. So that got me thinking, what gives? Then I could see what looked like favoritism, of course I didn't want to make accusations that point. I would rather have all of my facts straight before I confront anyone. At this point, I still question this issue. I feel most people are afraid to do this, in fear of retribution of a MOD.

I took it upon myself to ask what gives, in my own way. That resulted in a week long ban.....lol. I have to say I am not going to stop being me. And nobody should every judge the type of person that I am, in regards to my post.

Bob while I commend you with this appeal. IMO that might be impossible. I am not sure how many members there are. A quick search showed 1,255. I could have sworn I seen a post saying 4,000 plus. Either way that's a lot of people. I agree with Tim, we are dealing with different backgrounds and cultures. You all might want to keep this in mind, including myself.

One more thing I wanted to bring up. You all need to realize at some point, you will cross paths while chasing. So fighting in here might not bod well.

 

[Shane Adams]

Storm Track Members and Moderators,

I would like to thank Lanny Dean, Randy Cooper, Joey Ketchum and anyone else that stood up for me.

I would've but I was banned

 

[Connor McCrorey]

I would've but I was banned

What he said!

*miscellaneous text to meet the minimum length requirement*

 

[Jason Boggs]

One more thing I wanted to bring up. You all need to realize at some point, you will cross paths while chasing. So fighting in here might not bod well.

Personally, I wouldn't say anything on here that I wouldn't say to someones face out in the field. I'm not the type of person that hides behind a computer.

 

[Jason Foster]

See, the thing is...storm chasing in general was always about helping teach new folks the ropes....it came down to safety and the character of the people that started this hobby. As we see these days, there are a lot of unsafe situations, growing each year with the crowds.

There have always been chasers that don't want to teach anyone, whether it's because they wish to keep the action to themselves, don't have much patience, or recognize themselves as poor teachers. But these chasers have typically stayed off the mainstream and kept out of sight for the most part, recognizing that the attention will bring inquisitive minds.

Unfortunately, on this board and many others, there are folks with advanced knowledge that go out of the way to pester and dissuade newbies from joining in with those that are willing to teach. Sometimes it is for greed, sometimes it is just an elitist attitude they don't self-realize. For whatever reason they exist.

I think the first step in being civil and respectful, is just for each and every side to understand the differences between each other, that not every person is going to fit every ideal you (he/she) may have. After that, you build on the respect.

 

[Chris Nuttall]

With that said, I began looking around this place and seeing how posts and threads were/are handled. I seen some things that I personally didn't care for. I had some post that would suddenly vanish. They were non-inflammatory. So that got me thinking, what gives? Then I could see what looked like favoritism, of course I didn't want to make accusations that point. I would rather have all of my facts straight before I confront anyone. At this point, I still question this issue. I feel most people are afraid to do this, in fear of retribution of a MOD.

If there is ever a question regarding a moderator action, feel free to PM us. I am always open to trying to answer questions. I've received PMs about this kind of thing before, and I never hesitate to respond and help deal with the situation. Even if it wasn't me that took the action (due to being out-of-pocket or whatever), I will always accept a PM asking about the it, and I'll do my best to look into the matter.

I can count the number of times someone has PMed me about a moderator action on one hand. Instead, people will usually start a new thread or post in an existing one and come after the mods or take the flame war to a new level. IMHO, any discussion regarding any kind of action is between the moderator staff and the individual receiving the infractions. Some may disagree with me, but this is just what I think.

Remember the mod staff are human, too. That means that we are prone to mistakes and snap judgments just like anyone else. When several posts/threads are started by members going off on an infraction that just inflame the situation and literally dare the staff to thrown down a ban, I don't know why someone would really be surprised when that happens. It's simple human nature to respond when challenged. Sometimes the response is appropriate; sometimes it's too severe.

As far as posts "mysteriously vanishing," I guess in a perfect world, a PM would be sent every time we deleted someone's post. If an infraction or warning is sent, I think that serves as the notification. If we are trying to clean up a thread that has gotten out-of-hand but might not be infraction worthy, it's a lot easier to delete the posts rather than send individual PMs to 25 people. I suppose I could use the CC feature in PMs or post a bold-faced "MOD NOTE" in the thread, but sometimes I don't think of that.

One more thing I wanted to bring up. You all need to realize at some point, you will cross paths while chasing. So fighting in here might not bod well.

Chad brings up a good point. Most of us have never met each other. However, I can't remember how many times I've run across someone in the field, and after introductions, we both say, "Hey, aren't you on Stormtrack?"

Some people in here are members of other weather forums, while others are not. The internet has made the world much smaller, and in a hobby that is as small as ours, it's even more so. Reputations tend to spread like wildfire.

 

[Bob Hartig]

Bob while I commend you with this appeal. IMO that might be impossible. I am not sure how many members there are. A quick search showed 1,255. I could have sworn I seen a post saying 4,000 plus. Either way that's a lot of people. I agree with Tim, we are dealing with different backgrounds and cultures. You all might want to keep this in mind, including myself.

Thanks for the commendation, Chad. I have no idea what got you punted from the forum, but I appreciate your comments in your post here. And yeah, I had a sense from the start, when I wrote the initial post, that it probably wouldn't make a difference. But I'd finally gotten to the point where I felt I needed to say something regardless.

My initial entreaty to the storm chasing community was for civility towards each other--that is, to demonstrate mutual respect, precisely because everyone is different, has different levels of knowledge and experience, different outlooks and opinions, etc. I don't see that treating others the way we'd like to be treated ourselves threatens anyone's rugged individualism, free thinking, or machismo. If anything, it ought to encourage more people here to express their differences and to ask questions, knowing that the priority is to understand, clarify, grow, assist, and enrich each other even in our disagreements rather than to needlessly hammer on each other. Civility doesn't mean being a wimp. It just means expressing one's convictions in a way that's likelier to produce a more positive impact than bashing a person will accomplish.

Anyway, the discussion quickly moved off topic to the subject of individual rights--a different concern altogether, which belonged in a different thread. Forum threads take on a life of their own, though, and it seems to me that the discussion, while heated, may prove to have been profitable. That's my hope, anyway.

For the record, I've never reported anyone's post. Not ever. I think there were posts that deserved to get reported in that last foray; it's just not what I'm about. The reason I'm here isn't to play moral policeman--it's to share with the rest of you in our common passion for storm chasing. As for this thread, I've made my points, including my take on the rules of the Stormtrack forum versus the so-called rights of members. So, while I've said more than I anticipated saying, I'm probably done commenting at this point. Frankly, I hope so. I'm tired of the subject, and I wish like anything that another October 18, 2007, would come along and bring this poor, convectively malnourished Great Lakes chaser one last blast before the snows fly.

 

[Jim wyman]

Wow, what a thread!!!!

Made for some very interesting reading.

Bob, I commend you for you civility and respectful way you handle this topic. There soooooooooooooo much I could comment on but it has already been covered here probably....

But I will say this, I thank God I am living on the right side of the dirt!

What a great day!

Jim