60p? and Panasonic TS700

[Mike Hollingshead]

Just bit the bullet and ordered a new vid cam, Panasonic TS700. I noticed stuff about the 60p mode being amazing in the tests, while at the same time little to zero support for it on the pc cept for software that comes with the cam(which evidently crashes a lot on 60p). Evidently it's about the only consumer cam offering this 60p.

It seems this might be ideal for close tornado footage. But I get lost once wondering about frame rates being 29.97 for tv or whatever. Like could one even output that on DVD or Blu-ray anyway and it show on tv? Seems it would have to chop it down to 30p. But I'm clueless there.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-HDC-TM700-Camcorder-Review-37681.htm

Review there for it. Anyway, seems like a good alternative to the Sony HC line or Canon HV line on something that is a 3 chipper and under $1000. Abe's of Maine has it for $859 instead of $959 on BH and has pretty good reseller ratings. Though they called today trying pretty hard to sell me 4 different products, not massively different than a lot of electronic stores. It *should* show tomorrow lol. Didn't like going that way but at the same time did find them on Amazon for $870 as well so figured that wasn't too far off.

I guess the TS300 got cam of the year on a few sites last year and this is the new version of that but with the new 60p mode and bigger wider 35mm leica lens, which is faster at F1.5 instead of F1.8(lol I know big difference...but the wider aspect sounds nice).

The more I looked at those Panny's the more I found it odd they never get much mention on here and it's mostly HV line of Canon and lesser Sony line.

I guess the bit rate was a lot higher on 60p compared to 60i as well, 28mbits/s compared to 17. 4 hours of video on the 32 gig internal flash drive at the highest 17mbits/s 60i rate. Get more cards if one needs more, but going to be hard to need more than 4 hours most chase days lol.

Did better than the similarly priced Canon and Sony's they compared it to in low light.

 

[Dustin Wilcox]

About a Month ago I was in the Market and planned on going with this model, but it still wasn't shipping and I didn't want to wait, so I went ahead and got the Sony CX model...Can't speak for the Panasonic, but I will say you didn't make a mistake by not opting for the Sony...The more I hit and miss on the Consumer Camcorders, the more I have the desire to just leap into the Prosumer models...

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

In skimming the manual of this thing I see it has something that might be useful for chasing. You can turn on "pre-record". What it evidently does is constantly record to RAM so that when you push record with that on it will include 3 seconds of footage before you pushed record. So like you could get that freak close bolt and never miss it so long as the camera is on. Just have to hit record within those 3 seconds of seeing it(or whatever). There is an interesting 18x optical zoom option above the normal 12x optical. Evidently it's still optical in that it zooms in on that added res not needed for 1920x1080. I've never owned a camera with optical image stabilization. That's pretty crazy I see. The wide 35mm lens on it is considerably wider than my Sony HC1. 1/4 again as wide as a guess. Tested the two in my apartment from the same spot and was kind of blown away just how much wider it is. Shadows in my apartment looked pretty clean from some brief testing, and it's pretty dark in here as it is anyway. So far it is the best I've felt after getting a camcorder and it's my 4th since 2004 lol. At first glance I'm not sure my pc likes the AVCHD files much. I think most must convert that to AVI or something. Computer is a year old, dual core with a beefy vid card that has piping and crap coming off it and 1 gig of fast ram on the vid card. We'll see how to work out the editing aspect. (this was written with paragraph separations....no clue where those went)

 

[Mike Peregrine]

I'm anxious to hear your take on it after you use it a time or two. I'm running a standard Sony on the dash these days and an HV-20 in 24p for the first time (I've kept it in standard TV formats until now). I am most disappointed in the low light capability of this cam, so I'm doing everything I can to open it up, including running with a wide angle lens on it. In 24p you have to tripod everything, so 60p might be nice for handheld shots and zoomed up on subjects. I don't know why you wouldn't be able to render that any way you like, though you might have to search for supporting products a bit ... there are workarounds for everything. Anyway, be sure and post a report once you've used it under a storm base.

 

[James Hammett]

I have the TM300 which is indeed very similar. One of the reasons I got it instead of waiting a couple of months for the 700 was that I didn't see the big advantage of 60p. Maybe for slow-motion sequences? Not having to de-interlace for computer viewing is nice but it's not that big of deal to me at least. 28mbit encoding sounds nice but are you then actually getting a lower bitrate *per full frame* than you would with 17mbit at 60i? Either way, the slightly faster/wider lens makes me wonder if I made the right decision...ah well, they'll have something even better out by next year at this rate!

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/camcorders/tm700.shtml

Surprisingly luminous landscape actually reviewed this vid cam. They're rather impressed. They also mention a good bit about 60p editing and tv set info. No HD tv can show 60p right now at 1080. Just some that do 60p at 720. But at the same time, they barely comment on 60i and the one time they mention it, it is to say they don't know why anyone would shoot in that.

The make comparisons to a couple of their higher priced cams and then mention also it's the best image quality yet in a pocket sized vid cam. It's about the size of the HV20, at least as much in length but skinnier since it doesn't have to have the tape compartment or hard drive area either.

Damn it now they make me think I'd better just start off in 60p so I have it in 60p, then figure out which way to down convert for editing. Sounds like CS5 and Vegas Pro's latest version will work with the files in 60p now.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Another place raving about 60p.

http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/default.asp?newsID=4347&p=2


Video Quality
The 1080/60p footage looks amazing. The action is smooth as silk, sharp as a tack and free of digital artifacts. There is noticeable saturation with some of the more vivid colors, which might turn off some videophiles. Nevertheless, I like a touch of saturation in my clips and I think the colors look great.
Switch to 1080/60i and the video predictably loses a bit of its smoothness and sharpness, and digital artifacts creep in. It still looks great and is some of the best looking video I’ve seen from an HD camcorder, but 1080/60p blows it away. In low light settings, the TM700 also impressed with minimal noise and decent color and sharpness.




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Time to figure out how to edit 60p and if my computer even is up to it lol. The need for new software and new pc's......it never ever ends. Just won't feel right using a cam at less than what it is even capable of, damn it. Even if that looks great as it is.

It's strange it can look so much better if the HD tv's aren't even showing 60p. It must just be the fact it was recorded progressive and not interlaced. I don't know. Keep reading that it looks crazy in 60p.

Anyway for someone looking for a vid cam in the less than $1k market it sounds hard to beat. Also a reminder it's at Abe's of Maine for $859 which is $100 or more less than the majority of other places and I actually received mine fine.

 

[Peter Hulbert]

i have just returned to uk after stormchasing for 10 days 9th to 18th may not including travel days to and from DFW 6 Tornadoes and countless lightning photos i am well impressed with the panasonic HDC-SD700 at 1080p (only recieved it a couple of days before flying to us so had to learn about it on the job) it is outstanding hard to edit on my pc but video on my 720p laptop outstanding on my 42in 1080p hdmi tv almost like being there,
buy a minimum of 32g sd card and a spare battery as standard battery last just over 1hr at 1080p recording and 32g card 2 1/2hr

 

[Martin Kucera]

I've been testing this camcorder under various conditions for about two weeks now. The 1080/60p quality is mind blowing, especially with fast moving objects. Been able to easily edit the original footage using Cineform NeoScene and then doing whatever you please with it using Sony Vegas. I've had concerns about editing as well considering my pc is an older laptop with 1GB RAM.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Good info Martin, thanks. I actually tried that Neoscene avi but premiere wouldn't recognize it. My version wants cineform intermediate, which is what it converts captured HDV to. I tried some sony movie platinum thing. $84 thing under vegas. It played the clips fine and was at least easy to edit on a timeline without any contrast or color adjustments. Wonder if just using the original files straight to whatever would go on a DVD would be fine. Sucks getting a workflow for all that worked out and now that no longer working. I sure as hell don't feel like dropping $300 to upgrade premiere pro 1.5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-fecMzXSnQ

That was shot with it, not that youtube does much for impressing lol. I'm usually unhappy with vid cams once I use them on a storm. This one though looks rather amazing from the one time out. Gotta make sure to do manual white balance next time on everything as a couple scenes get a bit blue(not shown).

I can't begin to say just how wet I got that thing. The lcd and side were in wind driven rain for a long time. It was as such an angle most of the lens was fine with the small lens hood on. So much rain was on it you could hear after a bit it sounds like you are under water, as the water got in on the microphone. I was hoping this wasn't going to break or damage it and it came through perfectly fine.

Getting an external mic is probably a good idea. You don't hear anything till the camera warms and that fan kicks up. Then it's a pretty blatantly obvious whine. Not sure if it was worse since it had to be full of water, but I'd guess not.

Please tell me there is some way to infinity lock that thing besides clicking to autofocus and then back to manual?

I really don't care for the lcd/viewfinder turning the cam on and off. It makes it more confusing if you try to use the power buttong, since that button is inside the lcd. I mean I like to use the lcd then close it so it stays on and the battery lasts longer. Sure you can leave the viewfinder out and it will stay on I guess. I start driving myself nuts when I just simply want to use the power button for all that. Like I have to turn it off with the power button then I close the lcd. Then you open the lcd and it turns on again, but can you then close it and it stays on or is it going to shut it off on you. Just annoying but maybe I'll get used to what the heck I need to do and when. If the power button wasn't inside the lcd seems it would be a bit less confusing if that was how you wanted to run the thing.

Manual mode can drive me nuts too. Like you can't use manual focus in the automode. So to get off auto you have to change it to manual. Fine. Well depending on what you do in there and how you close out of it, it can stop auto adjusting exposure. I think if you set shutter or infinity to clear them after that, so you get auto exposing again you have to push it back to auto mode then go back to manual so you can get back off the autofocus that move just gave you. I had some settings on there and was like, alright now how do I make them stop picking those for shutter or iris and just auto expose again. Don't do it right and you wno't be getting auto exposure. And well it's just kinda confusing if you are trying to go back and forth much. Having no infinity focus lock doesn't help. Unless it does somehow! Seems completely idiotic to me if it doesn't.

Image quality is just amazing though, you can sure tell the 3 chip difference. Oh yeah and I guess it does tend to oversaturate like those reviews mentioned. Should be easy enough to fix. It's really only a problem if you didn't have the white balance right.

 

[Martin Kucera]

Mike, your wedge video is simply unreal. Great job on that!
About the infininty issue. Along with the panny I also have a sony XR-500 AVCHD cam (great cam). It has a manual focus range indicator, it shows you how far out the cam is focused. I was testing the infinity focus on a distant lighthouse on the ocean horizon. Infinity looked good on the wide angle shooting. As I zoomed all the way on the lighthouse, the camcorder indicated a focus distance of about 40 - 60 yards out, thats when the lighthouse was tack sharp. And we know how much sharp focus is critical for hi-def video. When I manually adjusted the focus to infinity, the lighthouse, about 5 miles out, was blurry and out of focus. Now I am not sure of this is the case with other cams, perhaps other folks on here could comment on this. With that in mind, I prefer to manually focus everything these days, but the panny does a very good job keeping the auto focus sharp.
Seems as this is a "consumer" camcorder, it really doesnt seem possible to set some things manually while leaving camcorder to take care of the rest. I found that the camcorder maintains a very good dynamic range when left on full auto. Also picture is much better when saturation is dialed back a notch. Seems like Panasonic would like us to use the focus assist function where objects get that bluish cast around them when they are manually focused on. Seems very nice if you are not in a hurry. Although for fast shooting with changing condition this cam seems to take excellent images on full auto in vast majority of situations. Just based on my experience with the cam so far. The white balance might be one issue to watch as you mentioned.
External mic is a must and I highly recommend Rode Stereo Video Mic, very well built, is also has built in low pass filter that almost completely tunes out blowing wind, etc while preserving pristine audio. It comes with a fuzzy wind jammer and works an absolute magic in windy situations.
Also, have you tried to play with the built in audio controls - the audio gain function should be off, there is also a wind noise cancelling thing in the menu.
Optical stabilizer is very very good, I didnt thing it could be better than the sony but it is! The cam delivers very high quality stills from video under good lighting conditions, it is a dream to extract them from the progressive footage, they look better to me than images this camcorder takes in still picture mode.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Thanks Martin, I'll have to just keep doing the auto focus then flip to manual thing. I kept getting rain on it last time so obviously the autofocus was not an option. Hopefully it'll work out easy enough.

I haven't messed with audio yet, never been into audio at all. I'll for sure be getting a mic of some sort though, anything to get away from that fan.

That image stabilization does rule, you're right. Its quite impressive. I wouldn't mind auto if only I could put focus on manual. It's annoying I'm doin something in there that sometimes fixes that exposure in one position. It doesn't seem to have a simple exposure offset either. Do it yourself in the funky manual zone method or just don't do it. Like most it seems to over expose some on flatter contrast scenes. Would be nice to just offset that and not have to go into manual and then have it stuck on that exposure if you happen to pan.

I love the quality but there are some aspects that bug me in how to operate it.

I do see it doing what every HDV camera I've had does(3 of them now). Some slow gradients on clouds it's a bit abrupt compared to reality. Like going from shadows it might go blue bang into a purplish/red tinge then bang into the gray it should be. Heck that was the main reason I went to HV20 from my Sony HC1 and it was a pretty big reason I went to this one from the HV20 cause the HV20 did it about as bad as the HC1. I thought maybe it was those lacking 3 chips but it wasn't. Might need some real high dollar stuff if one wants to avoid that. Just not enough room in the compression to define that area of slow gradient. So it appears kinda gappy.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

There is a ton of talk about the fan noise on this camera. I just uploaded a clip from that part of the tornado where the fan kicks up. It's about 1 minute in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkBWuYAznds

Pretty annoying. I did some tests today. If you cover the mic it gets way louder on video. If you close the lcd it gets way louder and it sounds like it kicks up the speed. Like it automatically forces it higher, probably because the fan is INSIDE where the LCD shuts. Seems so amazingly stupid. But you can clearly hear the difference on the video when you open and close that lcd and more-so even when you cover the mic.

I hope my issue there is the mic getting covered in rain and perhaps the lcd had blown shut by then. I remember getting tired of trying to hold it open as the wind wanted to blow it shut. I bet I gave up then and with it shut and the mic covered in water that sick whine shows up.

All that lead me to AVS forums today. That lead me to this thread on external mics being worse than the internal one: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1245319&highlight=tm700+external

Kinda interesting. Too bad I just ordered the Azden one. Might just return it if it doesn't fix the whine noise. Sounds like the internal wiring for sound makes it not matter waht mic you hook up or something.

Then there was this interesting bit on isolating and removing the whine noise with some adobe soundbooth software here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18702369#post18702369

Pretty cool you can do that.

 

[Bob Hartig]

Mike, just to make sure, you've got the TM700K, right? You had initially specified TS, not TM. Assuming you've the TM700, can you give an update on how it's working for you? I'm scoping that model out and so far have read great reviews on it. The price looks right, too. Have you resolved the noise issue?