5/4/07 DISC: KS

[Doug Lee]

A few comments on issues others have raised.

Most grain elevators I have seen are cylindircal, and a cylinder is one of the strongest natural structural forms. Also, if the elevators are full, the grain provides extra resistance to the wind by applying pressure outward on the elevator wall.

From the picture of the water tower, it is a tank supported by a frame. The water tower came down because the frame gave way.

About the storm cycling, but the tornado stayed on the ground: my guess is that the storm cycled in intensity, but not enough to cause the tornado to lift or dissipate. Some one in the REPORTS thread said they found a gap in the damage path/pattern. I believe the parent supercell lost eonough intensity to cause the tornado to weaken to an F0, but it quickly regained strength and grew into the wedge.

I am saddened to see such small town take such a big hit. I know I passed through Greensburg 30 years ago on my way to attend a military supply school at Ft. Carson CO. I don't remember much specifically, but I do remember going through one town with large grain elevators. That was probably Greensburg.

 

[Jason Bolt]

I'm going to cross-post this thought over here too, since I just can't get it out of my head. I'm really impressed by the example of officer Robert Tim Buckman, who died trying to protect this little town. His son said: "He was sworn to protect people and that’s what he was doing the night he got picked up by a tornado." If that isn't an example of a real man, I just really don't know what is.

There is seldom an event on this scale that requires every hand on deck like this tornado did. A small community, isolated from mainstream resources, miles from Dodge or ICT either one. Like Amos, I also feel like the chasers involved did a fine thing in working to help their neighbors that night. What a refreshing, selfless attitude! I'm sure that the images currently stuck in their heads will be there for quite a while ... every chaser who has ever been confronted by a similar situation has a few ghosts of their own to cope with afterward. But you should feel very good about lending a hand. People needed you that night and you came through for them -

Thank you. This means so much to me. I am the person who called Tim out that night. I was the last person to see him alive. It's hard. He really is a hero and thank you for posting this.

On a lighter note, Bob Fritchie and the others that helped us that night, we are so grateful to you all.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

Jason - Hope this isn't getting too OT, but wanted to express a couple of things. What a tragic set of events you're dealing with there. Some may have a hard time accepting (or maybe don't want to accept) the reality of what happens in a situation like this. And for those few, tornadoes will only be about congratulations and trophies. That's ok and there's no reason to offer blind judgments on the subject. But the reality is that sometimes they are also killers, stone cold killers. And they severely alter people's lives all the time. Once someone really "sees" that side of the coin, they don't really go back. I've been in several situations now that have really changed my perception for whatever reason. There are others out there who feel the same way.

One thing I know while a person is going through a period of grief after something like this is the tendency we all have to ask things like 'what if' and 'if I had only done this instead.' The truth, though ... this really comes back to the same thing - a violent force of nature that can cause tragedy we didn't expect. You and many others will continue to go through a lot of emotions. That's natural. But try not to allow yourself to enter a prolonged search for blame for what happened. Many choices were made out there, not just yours. And the truth is that we are all victims of circumstance at one time or another.

Greensburg may have been a little place, but it will stay big on people's minds for a very long time. I guarantee it -

In the meantime, you have my sincerest condolences.

 

[Willie Dines]

I don't think that anyone could have said it any better, than Mike has just now and I agree with those sentiments wholeheartedly.

No matter what, we are only human, and there is only so much that a person can do, and sadly, in this case, were was very little, that anyone could have done, for Greensburg, only to help those in need, and to pray for the families, who have lost loved ones.

You have my sincerest condolences and sympathies also Jason.

Willie

 

[Rebekah LaBar]

time of touchdown

We first witnessed touchdown of the stovepipe/soon-to-become-wedge at 8:56pm CDT. We later saw two or three other small tornadoes nearby, but we kept our eye on the stovepipe between lightning flashes and I believe this was the same one that a few minutes later exploded.

I never want to see another tornado, I might add...I obviously didn't live through the tornado but witnessing it and some of its damage affected me profoundly. I think it'll be a little while before I can stop freaking out every time I hear thunder and every time there's a tornado warning nearby (these thunderstorms in central Oklahoma the past few nights haven't helped in any sort of emotional recovery).

And regarding the grain elevator question...my group and I saw a ton of twisted metal north of Haviland and northeast of Greensburg the next day...and it was very difficult to make out what it was, but much of it did appear to be a grain elevator. I can post a couple pictures/video stills soon if you like.

 

[Todd Sprinkmann]

A few comments on issues others have raised.

From the picture of the water tower, it is a tank supported by a frame. The water tower came down because the frame gave way.

I was wondering what the Greensburg water tower's construction was like so I'm glad I came across your info. I lived about 25 miles away from Barneveld, WI (SW of Madison) on the night of June 8, 1984 and recall visiting that town some days after the F5 that leveled Barneveld shortly after midnight. My memory is that what remained was about 15 feet of a brick church bell tower and Barneveld's water tower. But their water tower was fully enclosed and cylindrical, not resting on a open metal framework.

Also want to thank those who posted radar grabs.

 

[mike scantlin]

i posted my pictures of the tornado in the reports thread.

 

[jladue]

Greensburg hit twice by the same tornado?

I find it interesting looking at the Greensburg reflectivity animation as it shows the initial area of rotation (the hook) moving toward town to the NE. It then arcs across town and toward 183 to the NW before moving NE again.

I reviewed the radar data with Les Lemon and we both watched the Greensburg tornado signature move just north of town, then move to the west where it touched Rt 183 before it moved back to the southeast. Now I understand why I saw damage on Rt 183 a couple miles WNW of town. At the same time, the next mesocyclone quickly grew in size and it appears that it ingested the roping vortex of the Greensburg tornado. Therefore, parts of Greensburg may have been subjected to this tornado twice.

The next mesocyclone east of Greensburg appeared to be even larger in size and it did, as you say, appear to ingest outflow from the next storm to the northwest. The damage width of this tornado appeared to be 2 miles or a little more.

BTW, here is a suite of video stills of the Greensburg tornado.
http://towerofstorms.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=899

We probably wound up seeing Dick McGowan by the downed power poles. We were the ones in the Prius.

 

[Dick McGowan]

We were in a Silver Camry. I think I recall seeing you guys.

 

[Paul Knightley]

I posted the discussion below in another thread (the one about "surviving an EF5 tornado), but perhaps it's better suited to this thread - mods, please amend/delete as appropriate! It is in relation to the motion of the Greensburg storm around about the time it was passing the city.

It's almost like another cell/flank to the west of the main updraught surges eastwards just after the storm passes through Greensburg. The area of interest is on the velocity loop, and develops across/close to Bucklin, before surging east. In the period just before, it's almost as if the Greensburg cell begins to turn left as the area of interest to the west starts to move ESE. As the area of interest (I'm calling it that because I don't know whether it's another small circulation or just a surging gust front) passes close to Mullinville, it and the main Greensburg meso seem to try to rotate (briefly) about a common centre of gravity, which is centred just west of Greensburg. As the surge continues to move from the west, it seems to push the Greensburg meso off to the ENE, at which time, the new meso is already forming.

It's hard to write what I'm trying to explain, but have a good look at the radar loops, and see if you can spot the centre of gravity I think I can see.

 

[afischer]

Jim's images show the obscuration by precip very well. I was surprised by the way things evolved. I got my best video 931-935pm with good contrast from lightning behind the tornado... then within literally one minute flat, heavy precip completely obscured the tornado and I assumed I would never see it again. (It looked like the storm had rapidly transitioned into an HP). I parked, called DDC, then actually went back and made sure I'd previously been recording... and by this time (940pm), the tornado was back in full view as it lumbered north toward Greensburg. There was definitely some wraparound precip, but the tornado was still very visible. Interesting evolution over a short period of time.

 

[afischer]

From DDC website: http://www.crh.noaa.gov/Image/ddc/GreensburgTornado/Kiowa county.gif

This one looks different from the one previously posted on ST. (e.g., path looks wider, and it maxes out much earlier on, etc.) ... anyone know the difference between the two survey maps?

 

[Willie Dines]

Here's the other map that Tony posted up in another thread

There is a considerable difference in the survey maps

Willie

 

[Bobby Prentice]

Here's the output from the NSSL Rotation Tracks product, clearly showing the occlusion process around Greensburg, KS.

Compare this to the official damage map for Kiowa County, KS: http://www.crh.noaa.gov/Image/ddc/GreensburgTornado/Kiowa county.gif

The next tornado northeast of Greensburg was well over a mile wide as well. The rotational tracks signatures suggest this tornado likely would have been rated EF-5 as well if there was any damage indicators (DIs) to prove it. It actually had a stronger rotational signature than the Greensburg tornado.

 

[Jeff Snyder]

The next tornado northeast of Greensburg was well over a mile wide as well. The rotational tracks signatures suggest this tornado likely would have been rated EF-5 as well if there was any damage indicators (DIs) to prove it. It actually had a stronger rotational signature than the Greensburg tornado.

Myself, Gabe Garfield, and Jana Houser were watching the Greensburg supercell on radar as we were driving back to OKC from the Woodward cell. I have never seen rotation as large and intense (per radar imagery) as was associated with the meso that developed east of the meso that produced the Greensburg EF5. From a scientific standpoint, it would have been interesting to have seen what the wind speeds were in that tornado using damage as a proxy. Fortunately, however, I'm very pleased that it did apparently miss several towns, since I think the damage could have been just as bad, or worse, than that produced in and near Greensburg. Now, radar data certainly doesn't tell much when it comes to tornadoes, but I'd think that it's much more useful when the tornadoes are as large as they were that day. Based on what I've seen from DDC 88D, I really think we could have seen back-to-back EF5 tornadoes had there been more high-end Damage Indicators in the path of the east-of-Greensburg tornado. I haven't heard much about the damage from this second very large tornado, however.

I think the area with >55kt radar-relative radial wind speeds on the 0.5 degree SRV scan from DDC covered more than 7.5 miles from NNE to SSW (or in the azimuthal / cross-radial direction). That's a huge area of "severe-criterion" winds associated with a very large vortex. Yet again, reminds me of Hallam and maybe the Geary OK 5-29-04 meso... In these cases, the tornadic winds seemed more like a "mesocyclone-on-the-ground" situation. It's possible that intense, damage-producing inflow to the north and outflow/RFD winds to the south of the tornado made the tornadic damage appear a bit larger than may have been the case, but these tornadoes was massive by any standards.