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    Sincerely, Jeff D.

4/26/09 Disc: TX/OK/KS/NE/IA

Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
723
Location
Wellston, Oklahoma
Well...time for the great 'High Risk' debate. Most of the storm reports coming out tonight occurred outside of the High Risk area, although the Moderate definitely verified. So...what happened? Too little CAP? Lack of any real eastward movement by the dryline? Thoughts?

Of particular interest is the tornado reports from Iowa. Linn and Delaware Counties experienced a tornado which struck a campground and several farms. The cell looked to be rather long tracked. Looking at the archived conditions from the area, it's pretty amazing.
 
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for the southern target... storms weren't popping off the dryline very well, hardly any shear perpendicular to the dryline that I noticed... storms kept seeding into each other and made quasi linear line segments... did rotate some when they finally pushed into W OK region where 0-1km SRH was quite high. (along with slightly better turning with height) But certainly not the mode favored... CAPE wasn't too bad... longer holding CAP may have helped, but the shear dynamics weren't ideal... I thought we had the CAPE to get it done. I've seen a very active dryline with this where our "seeds" don't congeal into mush... there was a reason for this today, however...and I attribute it to our shear profiles.

(and maybe I'm underestimating the effects a stouter cap would've had -- so that we might've had fewer 'seeds' and more isolation)

North of this on into N Central OK pointing north through KS.... no real cap to speak of... I believe (we had convection the entire day in this region, right?)

My two cents...
 
in regards to the Iowa storm:

anger. :mad:

I wasn't paying attention when this started about 15-20 miles NE of me.

Apparently this storm interacted with the warm front. (was in the vicinity of... or, as I've recently learned via the SPC... INVOF)

I had thought earlier in the day that the warm front might be interesting in Iowa... but kind of wrote it off when it seemed to have pushed into S MN... (but apparently, according to some of the maps I saw later on, it might've been oriented NW/SE across the NE part of the state... or maybe I am crazy)

Here are some pictures and video relating to it:
http://www.kcrg.com/younews?cid=71571&cat=Weather

news:
http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/43748622.html
 
Sorry this is a long post, but I was hoping to generate a little more discussion and analysis of things yesterday. Still soon, but it was a pretty interesting day and hopefully there are some good thoughts floating around out there about what went on.

Just from my perspective, I've wondered about several things ... seeing early convection on big days isn't unusual, and we see it a lot. In fact, we LIKE to see it ... because early rounds can soften the cap, provide an additional source of moisture once heating begins, and can introduce outflow boundaries into the mix that storms later ride and become more vigorous. Yesterday, though, with already low temps, I wonder if the early rounds may have modified the airmass too much. The dewpoint depressions just looked perfect to me. I mean, 75/64 is NOT a bad spread at all. But some have noted that actual obs had dews a couple degrees lower than that. I don't know ... seemed like everytime I looked at the mesonet, the dews were pretty much 64-65 all over the place. Sure felt juicy enough -

I would really like to know what was going on upstairs, though. What was UL ventilation REALLY like yesterday? I didn't notice rain falling through mesos, but thinking there was just a ton of rain-cooled air pooling under those storms or something. I wondered if the lack of cap may have been a problem, but when I looked at radar, even though storms were forming in lines, they were for the most part discreet enough to work. We've seen tons of situations with little or no cap when storms line up nicely and get fed by surface winds and stay just separated enough to produce a line of tornadoes. I honestly thought that would be the case yesterday. So I just can't feel like the lack of cap was a huge consideration.

Also, no one has mentioned it ... but we need to talk about CAPE. Fcst instability looked absolutely insane when we looked at it in the morning (I think it was the RUC that had it in the megabomb range). Wide variance in the models ... can't remember now, but seems like WRF was like 1500 j/kg range while RUC was like 3500 j/kg for southwest OK. So what's the dealio? We had sun ... we had moisture ... why didn't the available energy come up more?

When we were in Sayre, the western cells came easily into view and they appeared to go up fast, pulse for a bit and look crisp and strong, and then get whispy and totally unattractive.

I'm just wondering what the heck was really going on out there ...
 
Mike,

A couple of things I didn't like about the 00z OUN sounding... Low-level instability was minimal, with very little positive buoyancy below 650-700 mb. This likely yielded weak vertical acceleration in the low-levels, which, incidentally, was where the majority of the vertical shear was located. Of course, we don't entirely know how representative the OUN sounding was compared to the environment in western Oklahoma, but it didn't seem as though (a) sfc temp and Td or (b) 850-700 mb temps were much different between western and central Oklahoma IIRC.

The second thing I didn't like about the 00z OUN sounding was the 1.5-3 km wind profile. Winds near 1 km were 50+ kts, but they weakened to 30-35 kts just above there. This, in turn, resulted in an odd hodograph.

The late morning convection seemed to initiate ahead of a vort max, but I don't think the early convection had much of a negative impact on the environment for supercells yesterday. As the morning shortwave trough moved eastward, we saw the initial convection weaken and dissipate. The late morning - early afternoon supercell near Clinton looked okay for a while, but it too looked a bit "cold" after we followed it northeast of CSM 10-15 miles, and radar obs hinted that it was devolving from supercell to multicell mode. There may have been some negative impact from the anvil blowoff from the convection S of CDS moving into western OK, but the T and Tds looked to be fine for any convection that tracked into western Oklahoma. Similar to Saturday, however, we tended to see convection develop in a NE-SW fashion, which likely resulted in destructive interactions and storm seeding problems (given SW flow aloft). There appeared to be persistent convergence near Wheeler, TX, yesterday, wherein a storm would developed near Wheeler and move off to the northeast to be followed be new storm developed back to its southwest. Again, with southwest flow aloft, anvil precipitation from the new convection to the southwest likely seeded the updraft and RFD regions of downstream convection. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure why we didn't see more discrete supercells, and it probably would have helped had to had initiation in a N-S fashion instead of NE-SW orientation. That said, even the discrete cell that moved near FDR yesterday afternoon didn't produce. We often think that 0-1km shear is the most important factor for tornadoes given a supercell mode and enough CAPE for maintain convection, but we had very strong 0-1km SRH Saturday and Sunday. Alas, from the SPC storm reports, there were more tornadoes in IA yesterday than in OK (2). Frankly, it's a waste of fantastic near-surface SRH in the warm sector.

By 00 - 01 UTC, it was evident that a tornadic outbreak was not going to happen. Surface obs revealed low theta-e air moving northward from the expanding shield of weak convection in southwestern Oklahoma, and cold outflow had undercut the storms in northwestern Oklahoma. Despite very favorable 0-1km SRH, low-level instability was likely quite minimal in any areas affected by outflow / cold pool activity. Given the history of the storms yesterday, the surface obs across the risk area, and radar imagery that showed widespread, weak showers and thunderstorms, I found it very suspect that the 01 UTC SWODY1 maintained the High Risk. Certainly 30% hatched implies a good deal of coverage of tornadic supercells... This seemed likely earlier in the day, but I just can't imagine many thought such a tornado event was going to occur by the time the sun set. Again, I never really comment on SPC forecasts, but I found the 01 UTC SWODY1 one to be very suspect. There were a couple of small areas which were unaffected by prior convection and/or outflow -- one in the far southeastern part of the TX PH (upper-70 temps with low-60 Tds) and one in southcentral OK and northcentral TX ahead of the convection that occurred just W of there. However, Tds dropped into the 58-60F range near I35 by evening, so I wasn't too impressed with the short-line segments near and east of I44 after dark either.

EDIT: A tornado outbreak in Oklahoma? It's much less likely than you think. We've seen a small handful of cyclic tornadic supercells in Oklahoma since Oct 2001 (5-9-03, 5-8-03 in far N OK, 5-24-08, 6-13-07, and perhaps a couple more), but it certainly seems like the prolific tornado events have disproportionately occurred in KS and NE. Granted, KS and NE are larger than OK, but I've had much more success north of OK than in OK and TX since I came down to OK in 2001.
 
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we tended to see convection develop in a NE-SW fashion, which likely resulted in destructive interactions and storm seeding problems (given SW flow aloft).

This sounds reasonable to me and I've wondered about the DL and whether it maintained more of a positive orientation. Just as an edit to this, though ... our storm coming up out of Texas was well ahead of the line and completely by its lonesome, so I know there was more to the story than seeding. Not saying this wasn't the case in the line moving along the DL, but there just has to be more to it ... and your thoughts on llvl instability have me wondering.

Frankly, it's a waste of fantastic near-surface SRH in the warm sector.

NO DOUBT. It's just disgraceful to see the SRH numbers we did yesterday and ridiculously low LCLs and not get more out of the deal.
 
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EDIT: A tornado outbreak in Oklahoma? It's much less likely than you think. We've seen a small handful of cyclic tornadic supercells in Oklahoma since Oct 2001 (5-9-03, 5-8-03 in far N OK, 5-24-08, 6-13-07, and perhaps a couple more), but it certainly seems like the prolific tornado events have disproportionately occurred in KS and NE. Granted, KS and NE are larger than OK, but I've had much more success north of OK than in OK and TX since I came down to OK in 2001.


Umm yeah ... just to put this in perspective ... I love Oklahoma (don't get me wrong) ... it's beautiful and I could easily live there. BUT ... I've chased down there probably a dozen or so times over the years and as of yesterday my perfect record of ZERO tornadoes in the Sooner state is in no danger of being broken. lol
 
I have been busy with some other projects and haven't looked too closely at these threads or the data, but yesterday morning I noticed the soundings had very strong parallels with 4/26/91: very high ~700-750 mb EML, moderate cap, moderate instability, etc. In fact I've only seen morning soundings that looked like that on a couple of other chase days, such as the 1996 Benkelman day. So I was in fact pretty supportive of the high-risk/PDS and was surprised too at what happened.

Anyhow, first here is the 1991 sounding, 12Z (left) and 00Z (right).
910426oun.jpg


Here is 4/26/09, at 12Z (left) and 00Z (right). The similarity on the morning sounding with 1991 is striking. But as we see, by 00Z we had a whole different animal.
090426oun.jpg


I haven't looked in detail at what happened at 00Z, but it's clear that 1991 excelled with moisture advection and heating, while 2009 didn't cut it. In fact the boundary layer moisture decreased, the mid-levels warmed, and CAPE decreased. Granted this was OUN and conditions were probably a bit better out to the northwest, where there was some insolation, but still this is some groundwork for figuring out what happened.

Also given the huge spacing between RAOB sites, it's possible that we just didn't have a representative picture of the thermodynamic structure the storms were to be ingesting. For what it's worth, the OUN and FWD morning soundings had wet bulbing artifacts (FWD's was particularly atrocious) so I think we may have to start paying attention to data quality with these RRS sondes. I have a lot of concern that those errors may be routinely making it into the RUC and WRF model initialization.

Tim
 
Just a random observation w.r.t. the thermodynamic environment yesterday afternoon/evening... The 18Z supplemental Lamont OK RAOB (far northcentral OK) may have been a better "fit" for the near-storm environment from southcentral KS into far western OK than the 18-00Z OKC soundings were, as it was closer to the band of large scale ascent and just in advance of the clusters of storms that generally formed along that corridor. The Lamont sounding showed the capping inversion having lifted above 700mb and also sampled slightly richer near-sfc moisture that seemed to be present in that corridor as opposed to near OKC. The Lamont sounding showed 1800+ J/kg MLCAPE, basically no CINH, and about 80 J/kg MLCAPE below 3 km agl. This is of course assuming no subsequent reduction to the BL moisture through vertical mixing and/or the early afternoon convection (no idea if that's realistic to assume as I haven't examined the event closely). The 18Z Lamont sounding is attached below, overlaid on the 18Z OKC sounding. Lamont does show the same ugly "veering-backing" pattern observed at 12Z at AMA... though I have seen some major tornado events occur with at least weakly "S-shaped' hodos.

Another note, the 12Z DDC sounding yesterday morning looked pretty incredible and almost morning-after-Greensburg-like... sampling 2300+ MLCAPE, no CIN, and a whopping 130 MLCAPE below 3 km. Not nearly the potency of the Greensburg case, of course, but it's still pretty rare to see such a strongly surface-based environment at 12Z in the Plains. I think the early tor watch issued by SPC over KS (around 11Z) was definitely justified. It's really interesting to see how higher terrain (e.g. near and west of 100W) can augment low-level instability and reduce CIN in certain late-nite/early-morning cases like these.

Sorry, this sounding thumbnail doesn't seem to want to enlarge when clicked, not sure why.
 

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APRIL 26, 2009
Delaware County Iowa Rated EF-1
http://kamala.cod.edu/offs/KDVN/0904272100.nous43.html

Linn County IA Tornado Rated EF-1
http://kamala.cod.edu/offs/KDVN/0904272025.nous43.html

Butler County KS Tornado Rated EF-0
http://kamala.cod.edu/offs/KICT/0904272112.nous43.html

Sedgwick County KS Tornado Rated EF-1
http://kamala.cod.edu/offs/KICT/0904271548.nous43.html

NWS Wichita has more information:
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/news/display_cmsstory.php?wfo=ict&storyid=25853&source=0


APRIL 25, 2009
Leavenworth County KS Tornado Rated EF-1
http://kamala.cod.edu/offs/KEAX/0904261708.nous43.html

NWS Kansas City has more about this:
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/news/display_cmsstory.php?wfo=eax&storyid=25835&source=0

The question is, how come some NWS offices rarely ever release PNS statements concerning
tornadoes that happen in their CWA.

Mike
 
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Thanks for all the thoughts posted. For me, days like this are probably the most supremely frustrating. To the eyes of this average chaser, just about every criteria for severe weather AND TORNADOES was met and even exceeded on Sunday. Everything looked nearly perfect and I think I would pretty much choose to do all the same stuff again given the opportunity. I think the differences between northwest Oklahoma, southwest Oklahoma, and even OUN are so subtle, I would likely never be able to catch them in realtime. I appreciate the responses - - -
 
gonna ruffle some feathers but oh well. First off high risk or not there was POTENTIAL... had there been a slight risk and there was an outbreak then what? I hate to gripe but when chasers say that a storm was crap or wasn't worth much to write about.. Think about this, just be lucky you even saw a storm for driving so many miles that you did, appreciate what was out there. Yes we like to get our supercells, hail, tornadoes and lighting etc... I mean this is who i am not who you are, were all entitled to our own opinions and we have likes and dislikes. Also i saw there was still a high risk at night as well, as i said before as long as there was Potential for an outbreak or storng tornadoes, SPC did there job, put yourself in there shoes and if you made the call how would others of reacted to you if you had an outbreak yet endorsed the slight risk instead of a high risk? Oh well crap happens, would be an excuse wouldn't it.
 
I notice when I was out near Viola, OK on Sunday (4-25) there was a broad meso-cyclone rotating counter clockwise with what appeared to be another clockwise circulation just off to the N of this main area of counterclockwise rotation. A few of my chase partners noticed the same deal with storms on Saturday (4-24). The storm on Sunday which I am referring to is the second cell which moved through roll, OK (the cell after the cell which produced the tornado). Is this a normal occurance in semi-discrete sups?

To add to the above conversation: I have to mention the lack of great inflow into the storms. It seemed everytime the storms got their acts together they would ingest colder air (from some rain-cooled air from a previous storm or from its own cool rainshaft). Just south of Viola on that second storm, we noted the SE side of the meso was ingesting warm, moist air but when we arrived on the NE side of the meso it had turned to a very chilly airmass. Not sure how often this happened with other storms this weekend but I think this could have been a downfall to this cell.
 
I notice when I was out near Viola, OK on Sunday (4-25) there was a broad meso-cyclone rotating counter clockwise with what appeared to be another clockwise circulation just off to the N of this main area of counterclockwise rotation.

I was nowcasting for some friends Sunday, noticed anticyclonic circulation, and thought I'd save a couple SRV grabs. Here they are, in case anyone is interested.
 

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