2012-03-28 MISC: KS/NE

[Brian Douglas]

Normally I do not comment because I do not have anything to say, and if I am breaking protocol here I am sure someone will step in and stop me. I am going to ask a few questions on this storm because it was literally in my backyard, I am the county commissioner for the north end of Greenwood county and a longtime volunteer fireman, we spotted this storm and were making the call on whether or not to set off the sirens.

I farm and ranch in the northern end of the county and was building fence the afternoon this all blew up, from my vantage point initially it didn't appear to be much more than your garden variety thunderstorm. As far as I know we were not in a watch of any sort. As soon as the storm got close enough to hear thunder I went back to the house and pulled up the radar I watch, weather underground(I am sure most of you use something better, I would welcome suggestions) and what I saw was an echo that looked like one comma standing on another head to head. I have not seen a radar signature like that before. Almost immediately reports came in claiming rotation, but no warning was issued until a number of reports of funnels had come in and NWS indicated the only reason they issued the warning was because of the reports on the ground, not anything they saw on radar(at least initially). We caught up with several professional chasers, what they were saying was they saw strong rotation on the radars they were using.........so which is it, did this storm show strong rotation on radar or not? There were also claims it was moving back to the west some, toward Madison, and it did appear that way from the ground(although for the most part it seemed not to move at all), can anyone tell me for certain did it actually move toward the west, or was it merely backbuilding?

Initially we didn't think there was a touchdown, now a few residents in the rural areas say there is some damage, and perhaps there was a brief touchdown, did anyone on this forum actually see a tornado make contact with the ground? Also, there was more than one area producing funnels, I saw a funnel with as much inflow coming into the storm as I have ever seen up close and personal about 7 miles to the northwest of the Hilltop area at the same time they were watching the storm there. How common is this?

Finally, I will say the presence of "pros" made us take this much more seriously than we might have otherwise, so you guys do serve a purpose whether you know it or not.

 

[Stan Rose]

Hi Brian, I did not chase those storms but I'll attempt to respond to some of your questions. It would be useful to others if you indicated exact times or as close as possible in your comments. I took a quick look at a couple low-res images off KTWX. When you say the "NWS indicated..." you have to be more specific--how did they "indicate"? Did you talk to the warning office? Are your talking about a tornado warning (i assume)? Rotation alone is not going to prompt the local WFO to issue a warning. It seems pretty clear to me just looking at the reports from that eve that these were rotating storms, and even the low res images i looked at from 0100 and 0200 UTC show rotation. I suspect you are mistaken in your quote of "not anything they saw on radar" but if I am wrong, you will have to be more specific. The storm appeared to be backbuilding to me based on my quick look--note that is synonymous with "moving" (in this case westward). Storms are not solid objects, so they propogate rather than "move" per se. There is nothing unusual about multiple areas of inflow or funnels, that is fairly typical. Lastly, "professional" has different meanings to different folks; some 'pros' are more 'pro' than others...

 

[Brian Douglas]

Times, I can give approximate, if I have too I might be able to get the Sheriff to query dispatch, I believe he may be a fellow lurker here. I think the storm hit initially around 6pm. Funnels were reported shortly there after by the public(credible as far as I was concerned), so perhaps 6:30, although I may be a half hour off all the way around. I have to correct myself and say I do think they issued a T-Storm warning. I was on the phone with the Sheriff when a funnel passed over my house, just a little late for us to take cover. This was maybe 7pm give or take, at that point the decision was made to get our spotters in the field. When the tornado warning was finally issued, dispatch relayed the comment along the lines of "it was being issued because of the number of reports in the field, not because of what was seen on radar", I also recall something along that line being said on the Emporia radio station. There was so much radio traffic it is hard to recall everything, but I believe after it got dark NWS did see strong rotation, the question is still there, do you set off the sirens based on NWS warning a tornado, or what you see on the ground yourself. We'll go by what we see on the ground, we just need a little more consistency on what to expect from a given storm.

My entire point is about half the time our community has seen damage, it has come without warning. Two years ago a storm came through as the 10pm weather was on, the weatherman(Wichita) made the comment, "there is no severe weather in Kansas tonight", with that, our electricity went out. The next morning it was apparent "something" of a severe nature had started about 200 yards northeast of the house and traveled along a two mile path, taking out trees, fences and 15 power poles. Of course, as it has been pointed out to me several times, I am not qualified to determine whether or not it was a tornado, whatever it was, we were lucky it passed between farmsteads and not through them, the only fatality was a big doe that got wrapped up in the power lines.

I am not pointing fingers at anyone, I am merely trying to get a better handle on how to call these storms, because I take seriously the safety of my family and the people I represent, and if we can't trust the weather service to give us enough warning, we have to figure out how to do it ourselves. During the spring and summer months, I read you guys forecasts like Grandpa use to read the Bible, every day and with great concentration.

To add a little to this, when you are dealing with an all volunteer force burning their own gas and getting their own vehicles hailed on, as well as leaving their families when they might be in harms way, you can't send people running every time a cloud comes over. Most of you folks do this because you really enjoy it,I won't say we don't, but it is more of a community service, so we aren't passionate about it. I don't know what it is like in other small towns, but every time we set off the siren here and the town isn't destroyed, we "jumped the gun". So, it's a big deal, little towns are like that, what isn't anything in a city is a big deal in a small town. I am trying to use this situation on this forum to better understand what to do next time.

 

[Jeff Duda]

I went back to the house and pulled up the radar I watch, weather underground(I am sure most of you use something better, I would welcome suggestions) and what I saw was an echo that looked like one comma standing on another head to head. I have not seen a radar signature like that before. Almost immediately reports came in claiming rotation, but no warning was issued until a number of reports of funnels had come in and NWS indicated the only reason they issued the warning was because of the reports on the ground, not anything they saw on radar(at least initially). We caught up with several professional chasers, what they were saying was they saw strong rotation on the radars they were using.........so which is it, did this storm show strong rotation on radar or not? There were also claims it was moving back to the west some, toward Madison, and it did appear that way from the ground(although for the most part it seemed not to move at all), can anyone tell me for certain did it actually move toward the west, or was it merely backbuilding?

First off, if you have $80-$250 laying around, you could purchase the Gibson Ridge radar software (version 3, 2, or 2-analyst edition). It's best for those who are know the NEXRAD network well and know how to interrogate radar data well, too. I wouldn't worry about it unless you really want to get into analyzing radar echoes. I used the level II version of that software to analyze this storm. Here's my analysis for what you probably experienced (this is ENTIRELY based on data from the Wichita radar...I did not chase this nor see any video from it).

Since you said you were in northern Greenwood county, I will assume you were somewhere near Madison. Thus, initially the storm would've been to your west and southwest by 6 PM or so. Right around 6:30 PM the storm split, sending a left mover flying north towards Emporia and leaving an eastward moving cell that remained across your county. Perhaps it was during this time that you checked the radar and saw the "double comma" shape that you did. Without a better description of that, I can't help much more other than paste a shot of reflectivity at that time: reflectivity image. A portion of that storm intensified and developed weak rotation (on radar) just northwest of Madison about 10 minutes before 7 PM. Just as that area of threat was crossing into Lyon county, the storm split again and developed more organized rotation and a hook echo between Madison and Hamilton, just east of State Highway 99. While it didn't appear to become strongly organized, this area hardly moved over the next hour. It almost looks like the updraft of the storm became anchored over a spot in Greenwood county while the upper level flow tried to move the storm east. Based on what I saw on radar, I would be very vigilant about tornadic activity in the area near that storm. I would've liked to have had spotters in the area to verify any rotation (or lack thereof).

Does this help?

 

[Stan Rose]

GR would be a good investment.
I would also strongly recommend that you speak with the Warning Coordination Meteorologist of your local NWS office and express your concerns and objectives. It's their job to communicate with EMs etc.

 

[rdale]

I'd worry less about GR radar software and more about NWSChat. It sounds like you aren't using that - and you should be. It allows instant communication with the NWS mets, TV mets, and spotter groups in your area. And it's free

http://nwschat.weather.gov

 

[joel ewing]

RDale, just a quick aside, regarding your recommendation to Brian to pursue NWSChat....I understand from their website that "chasers" and "streamers" do NOT qualify for membership....but do you know if actual NWS "Spotters"...with a NWS spotter i.d. number qualify? Thanks.

 

[Brian Douglas]

Jeff, your analysis is consistent with what we saw on the ground, I live just northwest of Madison so the funnel that went over my house was probably the rotation you speak of. Eventually I moved southeast to the area you are referring to between Hamilton and Madison, an area we refer to as Shell Rock bridge, a little north of Hilltop. Our Sheriff, a deputy, 3 spotters and several chasers were all just south of that rotation. Reed Timmer?? was at that location, based mostly on what the chasers were saying we fired off the Madison sirens again after the storm was east of Madison because they felt it was moving west, they were getting large hail again in Madison, and it appeared to gradually move westward. Shortly after the sirens were set off I headed back home because I could not make contact with my family and was beginning to wonder what the situation was at home. Eventually I had to go back to block the highway with a fire truck because a vehicle had ended up in the creek on 58 east of Madison, by the time I got home at 11pm it was still raining hard in Madison, but the moon and stars were out along 99 to the north, the storm was extremely impressive in the moonlight, I would have really liked to have seen it in the daylight.

I appreciate the other suggestions......my issue still is the number of times we have been caught by surprise over the 15 years the fire department has served as spotters. Again, I am not blaming anyone. I wish I had kept a log. I think it was 2008 we had a storm come through that damaged a number of farmsteads over a path that was about 8 miles long give or take. It was at night, the storm was tornado warned about the same time it hit, hardly any of the people along the path had time to take cover, luckily no one was badly hurt. NWS called it "channelized straightline winds" however us yokels still believe it was a tornado. One of the main reasons I remain firm that it was a tornado was the narrowness of the path, and the fact a friend of mine had his barn lifted off the foundation and turned halfway round, yet the stock trailer next to it didn't move an inch.

We live at the edge of the earth as far as TV coverage goes, and seem to live on the edge of the earth as far as the NWS goes. There was an issue last year I thought was solved, NOAA radio for Greenwood county came out of the Beaumont transmitter, but from about Hamilton north you usually can only get Halls Summit, which didn't warn for us. Our emergency preparedness coordinator got a hold of Dick Elder and was told Halls Summit would warn for Greenwood county, I have not been around weather radios during tornado warnings since because of spotting, but fire weather and the flood warning the evening of this storm for GW have not been broadcast from Halls Summit.

With the number of chasers running around the country with equipment much more high tech than we have, it looks to me like NWS ought to "deputize" the best end of them, publish a list for the counties, so we would know which ones to take seriously when they show up, then just listen to them. Maybe the locals could help them navigate through our sometimes less than good road system, and you guys could watch for the tornadoes.

 

[rdale]

Joel - NCSs do. Not general spotters.