02/28/07 DISC: KS/MO

[Darin Brunin]

The problem with Darin's statements highlight an underlying problem with an attitude that reaches far past this event.

Now for the description.....I don't think that it really matters what shape the tornado was....A tornado is a tornado and will do equal damage no matter the shape of it is.

I was referring to the discussion on here. I didn't say that I was overly excited and never called in any reports to the NWS office because I was on the phone with a TV station in Topeka reporting back to them....but I figured that someone probably was when they called in the report or posted it on here and I was simply saying that calling a tornado violent is foolish without seeing damage...especially at night. Whether it or any other tornado is violent should not have any bearing on whether you issue a warning because you obviously know that an EF0 can kill someone. I am not disagreeing with on reporting tornado sightings but that you have to be careful with what you hear and I hope that you wouldn't use someone calling a tornado violent at night in a storm lacking lightning in the warning decision process.

As far as the shape goes...I was talking about people on here being critical about "where is that so called wedge tornado that occured the other night" Whether the people were right or wrong in calling it a wedge tornado does not matter when looking back on the event because people were probably excited that they saw a big tornado and whether it meets one's "wedge classification status" or not, you should ultimately take their word for it because they were there afterall.

 

[Scott Blair]

Mike,

An excellent question! Obviously in a perfect world, we strive to have every report as accurate as possible. However, there are times when visual observations are extremely difficult to observe. If one encounters such a case, still call into the NWS to report the event...BUT please make it clear there is a certain degree of uncertainty from your viewpoint on what precisely you're observing. From there, the NWS and the observer can piece together whatever clues/information exists. There is no harm for admitting a certain degree of uncertainty from what is being observed...just so long as it's stated and no assumptions are made.

We happily welcome every report we receive and are quite grateful for those that find a little time to pass information along.

SFB

 

[Mike Peregrine]

EAX has posted their event summary here.

I can't believe how close I actually was to that tornado, just about a half mile now that I'm looking at the map. Good grief - I had no idea.

 

[Scott Blair]

Darin,

I agree. The difficulty comes when an office receives multiple reports of a large violent tornado, followed by a stream of damage reports. Usually we don't know the scope of the damage. The tough part is when sending an update statement or new warning...the choice must be made do we classify this as "a large damaging tornado?" If it actually isn't, then we have just provided poor information and cried wolf to all our users. Of course, every situation is different and hence why the quality/accuracy of reports aids us in the warning process.

From a side note...I've always been under the impression a wedge tornado is defined by those tornadoes that appear to be at least as WIDE as they are TALL (per SPC). I'd certainly welcome any other insight.

SFB

 

[Mike Parker]

Holy crap!! All that was left was the basement. They walked away with no physical injuries but I bet they have some emotional issues after that.

 

[Jeff Snyder]

The pictures of the house removed are quite impressive. From the pictures (which never tell the entire story, such as method by which the walls were anchored, etc), it certainly looks like DoD 9 or 10. The expected winds for both DoDs (for Damage Indicator / DI / 2 -- one- or two-family residences) is in the EF4 range (170 and 200mph, respectively). See page 25 at http://www.wind.ttu.edu/EFScale.pdf .

For those wondering what "engineering quality" constitutes, there is an example on the WDTB presentation at http://www.wdtb.noaa.gov/courses/EF-scale/lesson2/player.html ... In particular, watch "frames" 15-18 (and note how the type of fastening between wall stud and sill plate/foundation strongly affects the "strength" of this part of the frame, with a clip being at least several times more resistant to upward forces than straight nailing). Another example is on 'slides' 40-41 (from the Hallam tornado). In the picture from the recent event, the damage looks worse than the damage seen on slide 41 (which was DoD9, airing towards the lower-bound winds given that the studs were singly, straight-nailed). An EF4 seems like a pretty good guess, depending upon just how well the home was built (possibly EF3 if it was poorly built). I'd at least open the possibility of EF5 if it weren't for the fact that it looks like the front wooden steps on the right of the picture are intact. I'd imagine that winds strong enough to cuase EF5 damage (>200mph) would at least destroy some wood steps.

 

[Eric D B'Hymer]

I believe i called in an accurate report to ICT from what i observed from my position. I reviewed my tape and i was very calm and accurate as to what i was reporting. I also told the person who answered my position and the probable position of the tornado. The report came out that the tornado was in my position and not where i desribed it to be which i understand happens in stressful times. I have shown my video to others and my report from page one is very accurate, and after talking to other chasers and spotters that were within 3 miles of my position, i have concluded that my report was quite accurate. I have also looked at the damage photos, good thing that the colony area is small and sparsely populated. Had this gone through any city in Allen County, the results would have probably been fatal due to the total lack of a spotter program, guess its a good thing i was home on this date. Im not going to get into this debate on damage, i am not into damage assessment, i am just glad no one was injured and hopefully my report saved lives and thats all i care about.

 

[Mike Parker]

Look, I totally believe Eric's report to ICT was dead on from what he was seeing. I was one mile north of his location and saw the same images he was seeing. Honestly, if you had seen this (link to pic) for a split second of a lightning flash, what would you think it was. It appears as wide as it does tall to me.

Truly, Mike Peregrine is correct in saying that getting a visual on this thing was very difficult. I think Eric did the right thing and if I were in his shoes, I would have done it the exact same way.

In fact, I would like to thank him for calling it in, rather than persecute his description.

 

[Kiel Ortega]

The pictures of the house removed are quite impressive. From the pictures (which never tell the entire story, such as method by which the walls were anchored, etc), it certainly looks like DoD 9 or 10. The expected winds for both DoDs (for Damage Indicator / DI / 2 -- one- or two-family residences) is in the EF4 range (170 and 200mph, respectively). See page 25 at http://www.wind.ttu.edu/EFScale.pdf .

For those wondering what "engineering quality" constitutes, there is an example on the WDTB presentation at http://www.wdtb.noaa.gov/courses/EF-scale/lesson2/player.html ... In particular, watch "frames" 15-18 (and note how the type of fastening between wall stud and sill plate/foundation strongly affects the "strength" of this part of the frame, with a clip being at least several times more resistant to upward forces than straight nailing). Another example is on 'slides' 40-41 (from the Hallam tornado). In the picture from the recent event, the damage looks worse than the damage seen on slide 41 (which was DI9, airing towards the lower-bound winds given that the studs were singly, straight-nailed). An EF4 seems like a pretty good guess, depending upon just how well the home was built (possibly EF3 if it was poorly built). I'd at least open the possibility of EF5 if it weren't for the fact that it looks like the front wooden steps on the right of the picture are intact. I'd imagine that winds strong enough to cuase EF5 damage (>200mph) would at least destroy some wood steps.

Nicely done Jeff...another thing I would point out are the trees (though it's hard to tell which way we are looking relative to the tornado motion). One pic has a small tree (near the house) that is snapped about 60% up its height. In another pic, a bigger tree has it's trunk snapped to...and most of the other trees are chopped up pretty good. But, there is a utility pole still standing b/w the house and the trees. Looking at the house itself, the sill plates look like they were barely moved (suggesting straight nails IMO). Also, some sill plates are missing as you look around the foundation...which makes me wonder about how well the sill plates were attached to the foundation. I would give this damage pictured here a EF-3.

 

[Scott Olson]

2/28/07 Radar Analysis, a multimedia presentation:

DOWNLOAD - High Quality version (reccomended)
OR
Streaming (YouTube)

 

[Alex Lamers]

Any word on what that tornado was rated? It's been nearly a week. Did they have to call in the special survey team?

 

[Kiel Ortega]

Any word on what that tornado was rated? It's been nearly a week. Did they have to call in the special survey team?

No they didn't call in a special team. I talked with a person in the know around NSSL...the people who surveyed from the EAX office posted a lot of pictures and solicited opinions from some people. I had heard they were set in their rating (and no, I will not say it ), so I don't know what the delay is. From what I posted earlier, I found out the home (picutred on the EAX site) was pretty well built with bolts in the bottom plate about every 3 feet, toe nailed studs and vertical straps b/w the walls and roof. Also heard that grass was scoured in one area. Still confused by the utility pole though...

 

[Jeff Snyder]

No they didn't call in a special team. I talked with a person in the know around NSSL...the people who surveyed from the EAX office posted a lot of pictures and solicited opinions from some people. I had heard they were set in their rating (and no, I will not say it ), so I don't know what the delay is. From what I posted earlier, I found out the home (picutred on the EAX site) was pretty well built with bolts in the bottom plate about every 3 feet, toe nailed studs and vertical straps b/w the walls and roof. Also heard that grass was scoured in one area. Still confused by the utility pole though...

That's interesting. I was under the impression that the QRT is called for all assessments when a violent tornado is suspected to have caused some of the damage. From what you've said and what I've thought (see my previous post on Pg3), it certainly sounds like it was a violent tornado.

 

[Evan Bookbinder]

OK, now that the release has been made official, I can finally speak. The tornado which tracked across Linn county KS has been rated an EF4.

Because this is the first violent tornado under the new scale, I had my survey results and photos analyzed and discussed at length with the QRT and EF scale experts to make sure everything was indeed correct. With the NSSW in Norman and then the Alabama/Georga tornadoes, tracking everyone down took some time. We apologize for the delay, but I think you all can empathize with the fact that no matter the rating, this poor family lost everything.

Thankfully, he received our warning about 25 minutes in advance and took shelter in his basement. He was most thankful and a good-hearted person I know the entire community will rally behind.

We got video from an off-duty AWC forecaster who was coming up the from the S out of Blue Mound -- it's a biggy. What's amazing is that there's no evidence of the tornado "increasing" in size from touchdown, as one would typically expect. This may be due to the extreme low LCL heightsand incredible shear -- (DPDs were on the order of 1-2F from a nearby weather station with low level SRHs estimated at > 1000!!). It basically goes from a wide funnel with multiple tendrils to a large wedge in very short order.

Evan

 

[John Peters]

Any news on the path width/length? The tornado appears very large in those video stills. It's a miracle that it managed to essentially remain in open country.