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wind speed charts

Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
537
Location
Bryan, TX
What are the most specific and clear wind speed charts and graphs available that follow a clear incremental sequence?

I'd like to see something, for instance, that clearly distinguishes between a 120 vs. 130 mph wind.

The EF scale gets quite specific with the damage charts for different buildings but it's not user-friendly; where is there a chart, which follows a scale much like the Beaufort of 1-3 mph, 4-7 mph, etc. all the way up to 300 or so? I'd like to see included such details as when a body is lifted up on two feet vs. lying down? And for how long does the wind need to gust? When a car is pushed off road (73-112 on F scale, but how about more exact than a 30 mph range?), vs. flipped, vs. flipped rolling vs. thrown etc.

http://www.marinewaypoints.com/marine/wind.shtml
http://www.spc.noaa.gov/efscale/ef-scale.html
 
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and pavement stripping. . . .

One of the reports noted in the reports here at stormtrack of the Feb. 5. outbreak mentioned pavement being torn up. I recall that happened with the Jarrell Texas F5, so I was surprized not to hear about pavement stripping counting as an EF-5. Is this because recently scientists have discovered it takes less wind to strip pavement? So, again, I'd like to see a fairly exhaustive incremental wind chart that includes the speed at which pavement-stripping takes place, and to see if indeed there is a distinction between pavement sandblasted to appear to be stripped versus literally being pulled up or lacerated to pieces, etc.


---it was from Brett Adair's post--here:
When we crossed the river we heard of North Oxford, MS has been hit. We decided to rush in that direction since we were in contact with JAN and were doing some reporting for WTVA in Tupelo that evening. When we reached the damage area....check points had already been set up and they would not even let the media near the area. That's where we were told that pavement had been ripped up and numerous well built structures had been destroyed. After seeing the people there, we decided to pack it up and head east back to Alabama as the squall line approached. It began to break up as we traveled Cooridor-X (soon to be I-22) in NW Alabama. Little did we know what was going to happen later in North AL.....or we would have likely stayed there to chase.
 
and another example, just yesterday . . . .

See this? It's another example how it would be useful to have very specific wind chart info for details such as lifting and throwing a human body, though there are some other data points to rely on.

--1. (from http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/15576037.html The article mentions both Independence and Tangipahoa, so based on SPC storm reports, I suppose it's this, which isn't complete at all: 1945 INDEPENDENCE TANGIPAHOA LA 3064 9051 WEST OF HIGHWAY 51...TREES AND POWER LINES WERE BLOWN DOWN. EAST OF HIGHWAY 51...DAMAGE WAS REPORTED AT A HOSPITAL WHEN A SMALL PORTION OF THE ROOF WAS PEELED OFF...AN (LIX))
A tornado that touched down Tuesday afternoon near Lallie Kemp Regional Medical Center fatally injured a 51-year-old woman by picking her up and flinging her against a parked car, hospital officials said.
---
So, the tornado was strong enough to pick her up, how strong was this? If she wasn't picked up, wouldn't one think this was only EF-1 damage?

--2.
The high winds triggered by the storm uprooted trees and knocked limbs into power lines, blocking at least 15 roadways throughout Tangipahoa Parish, parish Office of Emergency Preparedness Director Dawson Primes said.
---
Heck, by the Beaufort scale ( I assume can't quite be trusted these days?), trees uprooted only counts for 55-63 mph which wouldn't even make an EF-O (65-85)! But let's go with 91 from the EF scale (assuming hardwood: http://www.spc.noaa.gov/efscale/27.html), making it EF-1 or F1 if old school (73-112), unless of course were these large trees uprooted, then even an old school F2 (113-157)

But then you add some more details here:

--
The tornado also damaged four buildings in the rear of the hospital’s campus, Pack-Hookfin said. The roofs of two buildings used for offices were damaged and an unoccupied storage trailer was flipped onto its side and left leaning against another building, Pack-Hookfin said.

No estimate of damage was available Tuesday afternoon, she said.

The tornado also picked up and moved 20 to 30 vehicles in the parking lot of the hospital, Primes said. Tree branches scattered in the front parking lot had broken the white wooden fence in front of the hospital.
---
Ok, we'll assume this is an institutional building and with the roof gone, that's 86 mph (http://www.spc.noaa.gov/efscale/20.html) back to borderline EF-1.
The overturning of the trailer seems equivalent to perhaps a single unit mobile home flip, so still EF 1 around 100 to 110 (http://www.spc.noaa.gov/efscale/3.html) borderline F2, and I don't see anything for EF scale on autos.

So, not counting the lifted person and autos, we've got strong EF-1 damage, maybe borderline EF-2. So does one conclude then that say, 110 mph is enough to lift someone up in the air? After all, F1 (73-112) scale claims "Automobiles overturned." And yet I thought people would not go airborne out in a Cat. 2 hurricane? (peaking at 110?). So, exactly at what point does somebody go airborne? Is it the nature of rotating winds at 110 to be much more likely to produce uplift than a straight-line gust eh? And is it easier to lift and flip a car than a person becaue of greater surface area and the space below the vehicle? So, I think there's a degree of vagueness here, and I--and I would think others--would like a more precise incremental scale. Meanwhile, I'm going to go with winds of 105-115 mph for this tornado, an upper-end EF1 to a marginal EF-2. The article wasn't too specific about degree of roof damage. Just chattering in the dark here, but I'm curious about people's thoughts and what resources I might be missing. [But . . . there is that ambiguity about the cars "picked up and moved"--what does this mean? After all, old school F3 mentions "heavy cars lifted off the ground," so one would think F2 lifts not-so-heavy cars, putting us in the 113-157 range, so maybe should we up this to 113-120 max? Anyhow, why doesn't the EF scale include autos?)
 
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There's a plethora of issues here, but one relevant point is that it's not really possible to know what wind speed the vehicle saw without taking a direct measurement in the air space right around the car. A tornado is an extremely localized circulation and can have sharp variations on the order of feet and even across seconds/minutes of its life cycle. There's also the issue of whether the car was sheltered from the winds in some way, the car's weight and aerodynamic design, which way it was pointing relative to the winds (drag coefficient), and so forth.

I think the best you can do is say that given a direct hit, below X mph <25% of cars will be overturned and above Y mph 75+% of cars will be overturned, but again this kind of experiment needs a lot of work. I fear that range between X and Y is probably going to be too large to be of much use.

Regarding people being lifted in the air, some of it may be true but I don't believe half these stories... I've heard way too much exaggeration over the years. At least an overturned vehicle leaves little room for assumptions, as vehicles are never normally turned over unless you're near a scrapyard.

This might make for a good thesis if these problems could be worked through with some sort of scheme to minimize errors, but it sounds like a formidable task and I don't know if it is capable of adding much info to a survey.

Tim
 
Thanks for those points Tim. Also, when you suggest this potential equation "given a direct hit, below X mph <25% of cars will be overturned and above Y mph 75+% of cars will be overturned,"
that's the sort of probability that seems as though it could feasibly be translated into general terms like "probable" "unlikely" and "most likely." Or something along those terms that could help public awareness to emphasize the recklessness of driving and at least a basic consensus for those interested in tornados if not sufficiently precise damage surveys, maybe a starting point?

In addition, here's a message given the okay from C. Edwards to add to the discussion regarding pavement stripping:
---
Originally Posted by cedwards

Quote:
----
One of the reports noted in the reports here at stormtrack of the Feb. 5. outbreak mentioned pavement being torn up. I recall that happened with the Jarrell Texas F5, so I was surprized not to hear about pavement stripping counting as an EF-5.
-----
Also Kellerville, TX (F-5 June 8, 2005) stripped pavement.
Dimmit, TX June 2, 2005 stripped pavement. It was rated F-4 by VORTEX, but Texas Tech survey team rated it F-3

The wind speed that is required can vary greatly. If there is depression where the wind can get under the asphalt, it wouldn't take much to rip it up.

I don't think you will find a chart that will distinguish as accurately as you want (120 vs 130mph) There are too many variables. That is why they current charts are generalities. The wind speed required to pick someone up can vary greatly by the person.
 
Hi all, I know Im a complete newbie, and cannot contribute to the wind speed arithmatic. But I have dealt with structures, and buildings, and surveyors etc for a long time. The one thing I have learnt is that the term 'variables' is an understatement. For instance, if we take pavements as a case study. Every pavement is different. you can have 10 identical looking pavements and the variables will be huge. Depending on the quality, the 'ingrediants' going in to the concrete can vary substantially, meaning the pavements can vary hugely in density, weight, and durability. On top of this, their adhesion to the ground will vary hugely depending on the quality. It is easy to lay substandard pavement on substandard ground with substandard adhesion ( 1/2 mm of sand for instance!) and a two year old could blow the pavement away. Just from my very small experience of pavements and wind, I would estimate that pavement could be ripped up anywhere from 9mph to 170mph. I think there are some fundamental flaws with the EF scale. (Although I blatently have no good alternative). I could give similar examples for cars tipping, houses breaking, and people lifting.
 
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