What to do if you lose vehicle control -- and how not to...

[David Wolfson]

I like to think I'm a good driver and have gotten into and out of my share of skids, but there are some real pros on ST. What with the other ongoing discussions touching on this issue, I think the subject is worth its own thread, and there are a number of different circumstances to consider.

The saying, "Always steer into the skid." has been around forever. People have very different ideas about what that means. I'd suggest for discussion that part of the controversy is that this isn't the first step. The first step is to get steering control. Said another way, the first step is to get some traction to the front wheels. In my limited amateur experience this means to caress the steering wheel lightly and avoid hard braking (unless you have ABS, which is a Very Good Thing to have), until you feel the wheel responding. Then you steer moderately toward where you want to go, which is usually back toward the travel lane.

Inertia can be your friend in a skid because it wants to keep you going the same direction you were traveling. Now if you're skidding into a curve...? Let's have the pros weigh in here!

 

[Jason Foster]

I would suggest, if folks want to become really good at accident avoidance driving skills (among others skills), look for a comprehensive class. If you live in the Mid-Atlantic region, I highly suggestion checking out classes that are run at Summit Raceway in West Virginia. Sometimes these can cost a bit of money, but I can tell you that it is well worth it.

 

[John Farley]

I've driven in winter conditions for years, and being a skier I do it quite often. So I have some winter driving experience, and am happy to share my $.02 worth, although I claim no value greater than that to my advice. First, IMHO the best thing is to avoid the skid in the first place. That means driving at a reasonable speed, certainly not too fast for conditions but also not so slow that you can't get up a hill or increase your chance of getting rear ended. Anticipation is important, especially for upcoming curves and for downhills. You are a lot more likely to go into a skid and be unable to successfully brake if you are going downhill or into a curve - and worst of all is the combination of the two.

Also, braking is to be avoided if you can - if letting up on the gas does the trick to slow you down; you will be less likely to skid than if you brake. In general, if I start to skid I let up on the gas, and, if that is not enough to slow me down or I am in danger of hitting something, but still facing pretty much in the direction I want to go, I brake lightly and intermittently (especially important if you don't have antilock brakes). If I start to skid in such a manner that I am no longer facing in the direction I want, I immediately steer in the direction toward which the back end of the car is skidding. To me, this is pretty instinctive since if my rear end is turning to the right, my front end is facing left of the direction I want to go, so it seems obvious to me to steer to the right. But it must not be obvious to everyone, because I see people doing it wrong all the time. If you steer the wrong way (left, in this example), you will imediately put yourself in a bad spin and probably lose control. So it is important to steer the right way, i.e. toward the direction that your rear end is skidding toward. I agree that in this situation you don't want to brake until you regain some control, as that may just add to your skid.

I can't emphasize too much that the best principle here is to avoid the problem in the first place - don't drive too fast for conditions, and ease up on the gas any time you are approaching a curve or a downhill stretch of road or, especially, the two of those together. If that doesn't slow you down well before the curve or downhill stretch, brake lightly so you are going slower - you will lose control at a signficantly lower speed going downhill or into a curve than you will on a flat, straight road.

Disclaimer - these are my personal opinions - I am not a drivng instructor so I claim no special expertise and recommend that you review expert sources if you plan to do much winter driving. And I am not staying in a Holiday Inn Express tonight - Best Western, actually, LOL.

P.S. - I agree with Jason that the winter driving courses are an excellent idea if you plan to do much winter driving.

 

[Dean Baron]

My winter driving training includes whipping ****ties in parking lots. May seem stupid and immature but it actually really does help. No joke.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Oversteer (the back wheels losing traction) is the predominant cause of slick road accidents. It is usually triggered by steering input. Braking can cause the car to slide sideways, which results in oversteer when the driver attempts to straighten the vehicle out. Correcting oversteer requires turning in the direction the back end is sliding. The inputs should be gradual and light to avoid overcorrection (oversteer in the opposite direction).

Once oversteer occurs, the vehicle enters a highly unstable state that requires very precise control inputs to correct. The faster the speed, the more precise these inputs have to be, and the easier it is to get it wrong. It takes practice and concentration to be able to control a vehicle in this state. Add the panic factor and variable surface friction, and most people won't be able to do it.

A car in an oversteer slide acquires angular momentum (rotation). Overcorrection sends the car into a rate of rotation that is impossible for the wheels to counter, so the vehicle spins out regardless of how far the steering wheel is turned.

It's all about the laws of physics. Coefficient of friction for dry pavement is .85, wet pavement .65, ice and snow .1 or less! Which means the only surefire way to avoid the situation is to reduce speed. There is no 'skill' that allows someone to safely go faster. There is not much you can do to prepare yourself for high-speed oversteer. If it happens at 60-70mph, the chances for correction are very slim. I've found that anything above 40-45mph begins to get hairy as far as the vulnerability of oversteer and the difficulty in correcting it.

Here is a video showing a few examples of oversteer, showing both successful and unsuccesfull correction. You can see the front wheels turning and how the car responded to the input:

http://icyroadsafety.com/correctingvideo.shtml

 

[Ric Burney]

I am following this thread with interest but have a question.
What difference, if any would there be in trying to correct from a skid in a front wheel drive vehicle as opposed to a rear wheel drive vehicle?
I've read on other forums that in front wheel drive you should apply not only a soft brake but at the same time, a little bit of gas. Seems illogical to me.

 

[Dan Robinson]

I am following this thread with interest but have a question.
What difference, if any would there be in trying to correct from a skid in a front wheel drive vehicle as opposed to a rear wheel drive vehicle?
I've read on other forums that in front wheel drive you should apply not only a soft brake but at the same time, a little bit of gas. Seems illogical to me.

It's the same technique for both. RWD just makes oversteer more likely, since traction breaks if the wheels spin under power.

 

[Jerry Prsha]

Ok.. I'm a little too familiar with this subject having "totaled" our family car literally on the way to Grandma's house this past Christmas Day. My wife and two year old daughter were in the car, a 2001 Isuzu Rodeo.

We were driving straight ahead, with 4-wheel drive engaged and actually cognizant of the terrible street conditions. We had two days of rain and then the flash freeze before the snow hit that evening. We were crossing a new, rather long, overpass near our home and even though I was driving completely straight and had 4-wheel drive engaged, I stepped off the gas pedal as we were beginning the trip across and coasted.

The rear end just started sliding left which faced us towards the side of the overpass. I compensated slightly because although I know to steer into the slide, I certainly didn't need to continue directly at that concrete wall but it didn't matter. I was able to straighten us out before we hit the concrete barrier and the barrier, being beveled smacked out wheels first, tipped the car at a 45 degree angle and bounced us off into the air.

By then, we were screwed. Even though the damage to the body of the SUV was minimal, we had broke the suspension and the front axle busted. The front left wheel collapsed and we helplessly crossed back across all three lanes and smacked the other median at probably a 45 degree angle activating the front air bags.

My wife smacked her head on the side window during the first collision and didn't even remember the second. My baby girl cut herself with the zipper on her coat when her head snapped forward in the final impact.

I've been driving for thirty years now and have had to deal with a lot of weather related issues in my time. Anything from hydroplaning to the same thing happening in the same SUV during a snow event a few years ago. (Back end sliding left)

This ice thing was just wild. I had no control whatsoever. The line from the Movie "War Games" comes to mind... "The only way to win is not to play the game."

We were going 30 miles an hour and just moving straight ahead. I've run through this accident over and over in my head and the only thing I could have done differently would have been to stay home.

Ice does not equal ice. Ice packed from snow still has some friction capability. We had bad rain, then freezing conditions with a ton of wind and I ended up on an Ice Rink. I still am not sure what broke the back end loose... But when it's that icy, it would have been a gust of wind.

It's been an educational experience. Not one I want to re-live....

 

[Dan Robinson]

Jerry, glad to hear you and your family are OK. Ice from freezing precip is the worst - an entirely different ballgame. As you say, there is usually no ability to correct at all. I've seen videos of cars barely creeping on glazed bridges, wheels locked, yet sliding like they were on an air hockey table - near zero friction.

 

[D. Hayes]

Yep. Ice is a no win situation. When I was younger I had a rear wheel drive car. I was headed to work to open up for the morning. I was being very careful and driving smooth and slow because it was freezing fog conditions. As I came around a slightly banked curve my car slid right off the road and down into the ditch. Nothing could of prevented that. I would have to be going a calculated speed to balance centrifugal force and the lack of friction to make it around the banked curve. Luckily it was warming up quickly and the ice melted. One of my coworkers pulled me out of the ditch an hour or so later.

Now I have 4x4 and again I avoid driving in icing conditions. Anything else is fun and fair game. One thing to note is all cars FWD, RWD, 4x4, plus the many differential types make vehicles behave differently. Your best defense is just knowing how your car handles. Go out in a safe isolated location and push it a bit under different conditions.

 

[Bob Hartig]

Then there's the greasy slush that comes from melted snow on the road, leaving a thin layer of slime on the pavement. It's deceptive because there's enough viable road surface to give traction, but try braking in the wrong spot and you'll find yourself skidding. It's nothing like driving on ice, but it packs its own brand of drama.

 

[Skip Talbot]

There have been a few times that I've been driving that I can remember that no amount of steering helped the skid. If there road is slick enough, your vehicle will move and slide however it wants with there being nothing you can do. I went off the road one time and remember steering in both direction and then finally hit the stop on the steering wheel, and the car never changed directions. Luckily the car went out into an open field so there was nothing for me to hit. There was another incident where I was coming around a curve on a residential street and my back end to started to slide towards a parked car. Steering properly into the slide probably would have put me on a crash course right into the parked car, so I steered well past the normal amount into the slide and wound up turning 90 degrees into the slide. I went off the road and buried the car in a snow bank a few between a mailbox on one side and the parked car on the other, but it was a far better outcome than hitting the parked car. Now instead of trying to rely on driving skills, I simply drive excessively slow when the roads are slick and its kept me out of trouble most of the time.

 

[Chris Heater]

My accident experience

I'll give my .02 cents worth since I recently got into an accident on this past Thursday. IMO it all depends on how slick it is. If its all ice, it really doesn't matter what you do...once you start sliding your at the mercy of where your car wants to go. You can keep from hitting something to the best of your ability but until you straighten it back out you have little control

In the case of my accident this past Thursday...it was mostly my fault. I was on I-74 westbound by Danville and the SECOND I hit 50mph (truck kicks into overdrive at this speed) I started to fishtail. The fishtail turned into a full power slide when I jerked my foot off the accelerator, bring the momentum forward. Ended up doing a full 360 turn on the interstate...so by the time I went through that I was at the mercy of where my truck WANTED to go. Went nose down into the ditch at 45mph (barely slowing down) and spun another 360 degrees before finally coming to a stop 50ft from a guardrail. Question...what do you do when you wind up doing a full 360? IMO you have lost complete control at that point

This was in a 4X4 truck (Chevy S-10). Anyone with a pickup truck, make sure you have weight in the back of it. It was that major mistake of mine that cost me this accident. Driving too fast for conditions was another. A third would be NEVER underestimate what a road LOOKS like. To me...the lane I was in was completely clear but little to my knowing traffic was heavier on this side of the interstate. Cars and semi's would run over the snow and melt it, then it would refreeze...creating a pure sheet of black ice. Factor in speed and no weight in the back of my truck and it was just waiting to happen. Lesson learned...and hopefully this gives others some ideas on what to do in case they spin out

 

[Dan Robinson]

I can't say this for certain, but after watching a lot of cars do this, it may be that once your vehicle rotates past 90 degrees, it's better to lock the wheels and just ride it out. You're out of control anyway, braking at that point isn't hurting you but is actually helping to slow you down. It seems that when a car spins out with wheels locked, it stays on generally the same heading (due to momentum) and has a better chance of not going off of the road/hitting the barrier. When the front wheels are rolling, they still have some steering ability even on ice. Once you know you've lost it, those turned wheels can change your direction of travel whereas locked wheels won't cause you to veer off course as much.

The other factor is that if you happen to leave the icy patch with wheels turned hard, they will grab and whip you in whatever direction they're pointing.

Again, I'm not confident enough in that to say that (hitting the brakes upon loss of control) it's good advice, but I know that many of the cars I've seen do a full spinout end up staying on the road and actually slowing down quicker.

Either way, as many have said, it's best to avoid that situation in the first place by keeping speed down below 40mph. I will never again drive faster than that on snow and ice after everything I've seen.

 

[Adam Lucio]

I drove a rear wheel drive van for the first 10 years of my driving life [age 16 to 26.]

I can honestly say as someone else suggested that going down empty streets or even a parking lot is good practice. I would drift around corners in the winter sideways to get a feel for how much correction needs to be done when the vehicle is starting to lose control.

I have fish tailed 3 times in wet conditions and recovered every time. I even had a whole tire fly off once and was to keep the van in control and pull over safely.

I never hit the gas or the brakes I just let the vehicle ride it out. Hitting the gas and brakes IMO causes force to be transferred un-naturally. It also locks the wheels in place and might hinder the chance the tires have to get a grip on the pavement again.

I think once your at highways speeds there is little that can be done though. Once on a chase a driver towing a trailer miscalculated a lane change and clipped my bumper which caused me to lose control and slide into the median. No amount of practice or preparedness is enough for the worst case scenario [I was doing 70 and it was pouring out - the other driver was doing 70+]

Too many people think 4wd means they cant lose control or the car will drive. 4wd should only be used if you cant get yourself out of a situation you got yourself in with 2wd, or for stuff like rock climbing and off roading [even then I never use 4wd until i need to.] If only 1 tire has traction out of the 4 the vehicle will pull in the direction that 1 tire has traction and if the other 3 cant get a grip the vehicle will not move straight.

I don't claim to be an expert, but IMO the above has worked well for me.