Tornado Probe

[Joshua T. Clark]

To All,

After seeing the episode of Stormchasers featuring Reed Timmer's parachute probes, I had an idea. Instead of the use of an air cannon to launch a probe into a tornadic storm, why not a rocket instead. I know that there a special radiosondes called rocketsondes but what I am thinking is a rocket with a large payload section that at a specific moment, the rocket deploys multiple sensor packages designed to self-generate lift and be lofted into the storm.

The question is how small could someone design and build a sensor that has temperature, humidity, pressure sensor, a radio transmitter, and a GPS reciever (for windfinding) so that you could pack say a hundred or so into the payload section of a rocket.

 

[rdale]

The more pressing question -- is why? There's not much to be gained in the big picture, and the technical aspects are overwhelming. Time and money would be better spent sampling the environment outside of the tornado.

 

[Joshua T. Clark]

Sampling the environment outside a storm can only tell you say A-M but in-situ measurements could perhaps complete the alphabet. The possibility of a sensor that is lofted into a tornadic supercell, capturing something that is in the low end of mesoscale or the higher end of microscale could perhaps bring to light something that is unknown. The process that creates tornadoes in some supercells and not in others is still somewhat an enigma to meterologists. There are some great theories regarding the subject.

I believe that there is a lot to gain. If by capturing a phenomenon or previously unknown aspect of tornadic supercells, this information could lead to enhancing the forecasting methods for tornado genesis and pershaps save countless live in the process. About the technical aspect of this endeavor. I do not think that they would be overwhelming. Look at the Vaisala RS92 series radiosondes. They are no bigger than a couple of juice boxes put together.

 

[Jason Foster]

To directly answer the question as I know it...the reason rockets are not used that is: FAA & other government restrictions. The amount of fuel needed to reliably propel any rocket into a tornado with any sort of reliability is more than what is permitted by law at this time. Again, that is what I understand.

 

[Skip Talbot]

Yes, there are a lot of cons to attempting such a project. Is it possible, though? Sure.

You could fly a hobby rocket with some D sized engines with a sensor pack aboard that weighs only a few grams easily. I'd probably want to put a satellite tracking device like the Spot Personal Tracker aboard it though rather than a radio transmitter and GPS. That way you won't lose the probe or the data when it goes out of radio range. And the laundry list of problems:

• Data sampling time. Your lightweight sensor pack probably doesn't sample/record at a very high frequency. You might get only a couple readings from in or near the tornado, before the rocket flies elsewhere
• Weight. Designing for weight is crucial. A large hobby rocket can still probably only fly a few grams.
• Launch conditions. Good luck getting your rocket to fire straight, safely, reliably in the near tornado environment. The winds and precip will play havoc.
• Safety and regulations. You need to fire your rocket straight up and you need to make sure it doesn't interfere with any regulations (ie firing it over people or near an airport). If you try and angle your rocket horizontally to penetrate a tornado its more than likely going to hit something else first.
• Survivability. The landing or debris encountered during the flight may compromise your sensor pack and tracking. Designing the rocket to protect these components while keeping it under weight limits will be challenging.
• Recovery. Even with tracking, you might have a tough time finding the rocket, or it may wind up on private property or in a lake.

 

[rdale]

Sampling the environment outside a storm can only tell you say A-M but in-situ measurements could perhaps complete the alphabet. The possibility of a sensor that is lofted into a tornadic supercell, capturing something that is in the low end of mesoscale or the higher end of microscale could perhaps bring to light something that is unknown.

It could, but again if you're going to use something more than the Estes rocket from your hobby shop you need to jump a lot of hoops.

And then you have to contend with http://cadiiitalk.blogspot.com/2010/11/chasing-mythology-1.html

 

[Joshua T. Clark]

To clarify some points. The rocket itself would not be the sensor package. The rocket would contain a payload section a lot like a bigger NASA rocket that would contain the payload. The rocket is merely the delivery vehicle. In regards the power of the engine. I have experience with high-impulse rocketry. The engine would propel the rocket at multiple hundreds of mile an hour. The sensors themself would be designed to be expendable like a radiosonde or bathythermograph. Large scale high-power rockets can be quite heavy (multiple tens of pounds or heavier). I think the perfect target location for deploying the rocket in not in the tornado itself but in the inflow region because the tornado is merely the extension of what is really going on inside the storm. The shape of the sensor that I have in mind is not much different than a maple leaf. Something that can generate lift across an airfoil that can be lofted into the storm. I believe if enough of the sensors are ingested into the storm then with the flow dynamics of a supercell would disperse the sensors throughout the whole storm.

 

[rdale]

Remember the inflow is just a few hundred feet off the ground, so at 300 miles per hour you will need to eject your payload within a second of launch. That doesn't seem easy.

If your rocket is that heavy then it's a danger when it falls down and won't be approved by any agency.

How are you transmitting data from these sensors? How are you receiving the data?

 

[Verne Carlson]

To directly answer the question as I know it...the reason rockets are not used that is: FAA & other government restrictions. The amount of fuel needed to reliably propel any rocket into a tornado with any sort of reliability is more than what is permitted by law at this time. Again, that is what I understand.

To expand on what Jason pointed out. Any rocket large enough to carry a useful payload would need FAA clearance which requires an exact location and time window for the launch. If you know enough about how to predict a tornado for this information then you don't need to do any research - you already can predict tornadoes. There's been many attempts at this over the years. Here's one link.

 

[J Tyler]

I would like to add something else to the conversation.....

What about Radio Control Airplanes? Instead of trying to drop parachutes like Reed did, just fly the airplane INTO the tornado. The tornado would tear the lightweight foam plane apart, allowing the "probes" to be scattered within the tornado. The entire airplane weighs 31 ounces, so you are not putting anyone at risk. You do not need any kind of license to fly them. You can fly them at football fields, or empty fields/lots in cities. I fly RC planes, so I can add the following info:

1.
"Park Flyer" planes are lightweight and cheap made of foam, use electric motors. http://parkzone.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=PKZ5080

2.
Radios and receivers now have PLENTY of range, this is what I use:
http://www.spektrumrc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdId=SPM6610

3.
They have cheap, small cameras a lot of guys put on their airplanes for full video.

4.
Large hollow fuselage would allow you to place probes there.

5.
Because they are electric, there is NO prep time. You just stop the car, turn on the receiver and transmitter, and can even hand launch the airplane if you wish (no need for a runway).

 

[Verne Carlson]

I like to use the Parkzone Stryker for all the reason's Jeff mentioned plus you don't even have to attach a wing. Just take it out of the back of the car, switch it on and go! Here's the closest I've gotten to getting it into a tornado on the LaGrange, WY day in 2009:

 

[DRMabe]

I would think that the winds and debris would blow/knock an RC plane out of the air before it could get into the tornado. Too light..... As the the FAA and the rocket.......why should they worry about a somewhat heavy object falling from the sky near a tornado when there are likely hundreds of even heavier objects flying around in the tornado waiting to fall.....

 

[Melissa Jablonski]

It could, but again if you're going to use something more than the Estes rocket from your hobby shop you need to jump a lot of hoops.

And then you have to contend with http://cadiiitalk.blogspot.com/2010/11/chasing-mythology-1.html

Exacty. High power rocketry is divided into three catagories. Each catagory requires certification by N A R The National Assn ofRocketry, or Tripoli. Flights over a certain height need a waiver from the Federal aeronautics assn. Also, It was tried. I have video of some scientists trying that. The tonado blew the rocket away from its self. Josh what level of certification do you have? Bob has level 2 . Maybe we will see you at a launch.

 

[J Tyler]

If the winds are pulling into the tornado, then it would be pulling the plane INTO the tornado, which is the set goal. If you get the plane so close that it is hit by debris, then the plane becomes debris and is light weight, so you still have a good chance of being pulled into the tornado. Again, these planes are cheap, so multiple tries are not a problem. Plus, you could go to a ducted fan version that is more aerodynamic and faster if needed.

Hey Verne, NICE FLYING. Your more of a man than me. When hail starts to fall, I'm out! Forget the plane, I'm getting in the car! The Stryker is a pretty fun flying wing.

 

[Bill Tabor]

Years ago on Wx-Chase I brought up the idea of launching an army of balloon probes all around the supercell environment. Balloons are nothing new to meteorology and seem like a no brainer. Perhaps they have been used and I just am unaware? I'm sure 1 or 2 have occasionally but I am talking about a lot from different locations to sample pressure, temperature, thetaE, etc at different locations. Some would suck into the inflow region, some into the tornado, downdraft region, etc. Personally I think it would be great to get some high altitude measurements up the backside of the supercell near the origin of the RFD. It would also be cool to get some packages stuck in the hail core percolating through the up / down hail cycle - maybe have some measure the conditions during a supercell overshooting top collapse - get thrown out the top or downstream, etc. Certainly it seems it would be tough to keep a balloon from being pierced in a tornado or a hail core because of debris / hail, but perhaps the balloon could carry the instrument with a parachute to be released at that point or perhaps the instrument package itself would be designed aerodynamically to maintain flight in the updraft after release. Chase vehicles with sensors could sample conditions on the ground before release of their respective balloons.

We already have armies of chasers. I'm sure most / many would be willing to release a package occasionally in the interest of helping out science, and it wouldn't require creating an armada like Vortex2. Who knows, perhaps I should be organizing this.

If I was working at a University studying Severe Meteorology and working on a Doctorate or something this would make a great thesis or dissertation. It's a simple, relatively cheap concept with possible high reward. Design the instrument package and delivery mechanism then determine the parameters for study / release. Enlist participants and have the University fund it if possible.