Jerry Prsha
EF4
Just tried to report some hail and the server isn't responding...
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Reporting Hail vs Graupel/Ice Pellets
- Thread starter Jerry Prsha
- Start date
Skip Talbot
EF5
There's hail in Missouri right now? Were you just trying to test the system out, or are you confusing winter precip with hail?
The server probably isn't responding because of excessive amounts of traffic due to the winter storm. I've been having problems with the NWS servers all day.
Jerry Prsha
EF4
Heheh.. Yes.. It was hail. I thought that it was sleeting as i saw things bouncing out there however, when i went outside to salt, it was pea sized hail. I was shocked...
Skip Talbot
EF5
Jerry, I think its much more likely that it was graupel or ice pellets given the current conditions over your area. This is a winter form of precipitation that's often confused with hail. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graupel. Metars in your area are reporting freezing rain and ice pellets. True hail is not out of the question given that there are also thunderstorms forecast across the path of this winter storm system.
The NWS servers look like they are behaving better now (at least when I checked). I'd be careful about reporting hail using the espotter system right now, though, since its much more likely to be a form of winter precip. Plus its nowhere near severe limits.
The NWS servers look like they are behaving better now (at least when I checked). I'd be careful about reporting hail using the espotter system right now, though, since its much more likely to be a form of winter precip. Plus its nowhere near severe limits.
Jerry Prsha
EF4
We've had graupel... This was hail.
DWest
EF1
I don't mean to sound rude, but Skip is right - hail requires convective activity so that the water droplets can be alternated above and below the freezing line carrying on a storm's updraft. There weren't any thunderstorms in Missouri today, so that only leaves the possibility that there was some light sleet going on. There were quite a few reports of freezing rain just south of the Missouri River; sleet would be completely plausible. Hail, on the other hand, would have been completely impossible.
On topic, I'm not able to load eSpotter right now either - just hoping it comes back online before the precip gets to my area.
Jerry Prsha
EF4
So basically, the thunder I heard today was just some errant train track that I never knew was there, eh? Whatever dude...
Last edited by a moderator:
DWest
EF1
The conditions we experienced today were certainly not the same as those on Monday morning - nor did you mention thunder in your earlier post. Anyway, it's not that important - I'm simply agreeing with Skip that you most likely experienced sleet. If you really want to argue about this, feel free to send me a PM; maybe we can look at the radar data once the archiving service has it available (may be a day or two still).
Jason Foster
That would make for a great break off thread....even if a hypothetical idea of a convective storm producing hail/sleet, etc. and how to deter the difference when conditions could possibly match both (if possible). But that is for another thread.
Skip Talbot
EF5
Wow, didn't mean to derail this thread, but it looks like we've got enough posts to split it off. Hearing reports of hail raised my curiosity since St. Louis was not in the general thunder line yesterday, and temps at the surface were below freezing. My immediate thoughts were graupel or ice pellets given that the St. Louis METAR was reporting freezing rain and ice pellets without thunder:
Of course hail in the conventional sense is definitely possible in winter events as I eluded to earlier. In fact I'm sitting in a thunderstorm/heavy snow event as we speak here in Chicago and the current conditions at Midway were reporting small hail. However, it seems that hail and ice pellets are essentially the same thing regardless of the mechanisms behind their formation when reporting current conditions, differentiated by a diameter less than or greater than 5 mm. I take it there is a pretty fuzzy line when you're dealing with 0.2" inch hail and very low freezing levels, as to what is a layered hail stone originating from a convective updraft or just accretion of ice during a freezing rain event. Some NWS do like to hear reports of freezing rain and hail of any size. Still, reporting hail conjures up images in mind of larger stones originating from thunderstorms with strong convective updrafts.
Jerry Prsha
EF4
Thus my desire to report to ESpotter!
Seriously though... This happened on Monday, January 31st about 10:50am near Ballwin, Missouri. We had a much larger downpour of rain (not expected) a couple of thunderclaps and that's what made me look outside to see the hail pinging off our swing set and gas grill.
I was watching my 3 year old that morning so we went into the garage to examine the driveway and saw that it really was hail. What made me think it was hail opposed to graupel was that it wasn't white or "styrofoamish" but was basically clear and "glasslike" and not in a teardrop shape exactly but rounded that way.
I had no idea that my statement would be this "interesting" or I would have taken some pictures, etc. hehe
Greg Stumpf
EF5
At the start of the winter event in Norman, a thunderstorm with sleet moved over the eastern part of the city, with surface temps in the upper 20s. As the core moved directly over my house, we got a barrage of 1/4" - 3/8" hail for about 4 minutes. This was not graupel, as the stones were solid ice. Here's a picture of the aftermath, the hail and sleet on the ground.
Lanny Dean
EF5
This is an incorrect statement period. The system WAS convective in nature and as close to a negative tilt as we will see this time of year. Just west of the Tulsa area we received a few (5-10) good full CG's with some pea size hail.
Keith Wilson
EF2
We had dime sized hail during a thunderstorm in the blizzard of "78 in Western Kentucky, so it is entirely possible to get hail in a winter storm. It is convection, though I would think that winter hail would be pretty rare.
Besides, anything seems possible this winter.
Besides, anything seems possible this winter.
DWest
EF1
In my own defense, this was well before the main system had actually moved in - I didn't expect to see any kind of convection with that light forcing; in doing so I made some faulty assumptions. As a result, it does appear that I was wrong and owe Mr. Prsha an apology. I went ahead and took a look at the radar data from that time and found that there was some embedded and sporadic convective activity ongoing, albeit not very strong; cloud tops were up to 15000 feet at best - perhaps hail was possible due to the lowered freezing line. I've animated the appropriate images and posted them below; all of them fall between 15:56 and 17:04 UTC:
Animated loop of lowest tilt between 15:56 and 17:04 UTC:
Perimeter of following two 3D renderings, for reference:
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