Radar Holes

[Cameron E.]

Has anyone else noticed the massive radar hole in the eastern Red River Valley region? After the recent tornado in Idabel, OK and surrounding areas, I would think that it has come to show that this radar hole is kind of a problem. And I mean that for anyone who was watching that series of storms go through on November 4th. The radar gets pretty choppy from any surrounding station around that region where Idabel is. You would think they could put one in Texarkana, Idabel, or even Hugo I guess. But I've noticed over the years that a lot of sever weather rolls through that region. The radar available seems too distant to really be of good use if its so far away from that region I'm mentioning. I would think the radar would be shooting too high up into a storm in the Idabel region and wouldn't give radar sweeps of the base of a storm (just due to curvature of the Earth).

What does it take to build a radar station in a town? Why is there not one in that region already? Is there something I'm unaware of?

Thanks.

 

[Gavin Nichols]

it takes money. it costs about 10 mil just to build ONE new one. And the funding just is not there to fill them all right now.

 

[Mike Smith]

This very week the City of Durant and Choctaw Nation are erecting a new radar on the west side of Durant. The radar is C-band with a better than 1° beamwidth and pretty powerful. The data will be shared with the NWS but is it seems to be a mystery as to their plans (if any) to share with anyone else.

In my perfect world, the radar would be on the east side of Hugo, this is still an improvement given it is the #1 radar gap in the USA.

More on this topic: Why We Need Gap-Filler Radars

P.S. A C-band radar costs ~$600,000 not including the tower, electricity, etc. An -88 is extremely expensive but there are better alternatives that are less expensive.

 

[rdale]

There is a smaller scale radar going up in Durant OK in the next few months.

 

[Cameron E.]

This very week the City of Durant and Choctaw Nation are erecting a new radar on the west side of Durant. The radar is C-band with a better than 1° beamwidth and pretty powerful. The data will be shared with the NWS but is it seems to be a mystery as to their plans (if any) to share with anyone else.

In my perfect world, the radar would be on the east side of Hugo, this is still an improvement given it is the #1 radar gap in the USA.

More on this topic: Why We Need Gap-Filler Radars

P.S. A C-band radar costs ~$600,000 not including the tower, electricity, etc. An -88 is extremely expensive but there are better alternatives that are less expensive.

Why would the NWS consider not sharing that stations data to the public?

 

[Mike Smith]

Why would the NWS consider not sharing that stations data to the public?

Hi Cameron, the short answer is that it is not their data to share. The radar is being funded, as I understand it, by the City of Durant and Choctaw Nation. They will own the data and they will decide whether to share it.

Remember: there are costs associated with sharing. The NWS will insist on a dedicated, secure link. EM's in the area will want the data.In order to accommodate the rest of us, they will need to set up the equipment and bandwidth (which are not free).

I'm certainly hoping they will make it available but they are not talking about it at this point. I've even emailed the Durant people and did not receive a reply which is what I understand is the response others have received.

 

[Jamie H]

What else could they be hoping to do with it? Would they be trying to sell it to one of the TV stations?

 

[Mike Smith]

The purpose of the radar is to protect Durant, Bryan County,. and nearby Choctaw areas. Their EM('s) will be looking at the data as will the NWS. It is entirely possible that they will not want the hassle of dealing with anyone outside of that circle.

It is possible they will try to sell the data but whether anyone will want to purchase it is another matter. They may wish to give it away as a public service.

 

[Cameron E.]

I mean... all I want is for that data to end up on Radar Omega lol.

 

[rdale]

From the city's bid proposal:

Data obtained by this radar shall not be proprietary and shall be the property of the City of Durant, Oklahoma to be shared with partners and stakeholders. The data formats shall include NEXRAD msg31 level2 format which can be accepted by the Gibson Ridge
GR2Analyst software.

They can very easily allow IAState / AllisonHouse to pick that up and disseminate if they so choose. But it's their data==their choice.

 

[Warren Faidley]

There is plenty of money to fill multiple radar hole sites. It's not a financial priority with today's Government, especially since most of the "hole" areas involve poorer folks where votes cannot be purchased. True fact.

 

[Jamie H]

From this side of the ocean, who would be responsible for the cost? It would seem obvious that central government should fund it, but does it actually fall on individual states to do so?

 

[Mike Smith]

From this side of the ocean, who would be responsible for the cost? It would seem obvious that central government should fund it, but does it actually fall on individual states to do so?

In a rational world, the U.S. federal government would do it as protecting the population from interstate threats is a basic role of our government. Congress wanted to give the money to the NWS (a congressional committee asked me to put together a report on where twenty or so radars would be most needed, which I did). After laying the groundwork, in a rational world the National Weather Service would say, "thank you for helping to better do our jobs" but the NWS didn't want the radars: https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/11/21/radar-gaps-weather-service/ .

So, a few localities over the decades (Lubbock, TX was the first, I believe) have taken matters into their own hands and funded their own, usually after a major tornado occurs.

 

[Cameron E.]

In a rational world, the U.S. federal government would do it as protecting the population from interstate threats is a basic role of our government. Congress wanted to give the money to the NWS (a congressional committee asked me to put together a report on where twenty or so radars would be most needed, which I did). After laying the groundwork, in a rational world the National Weather Service would say, "thank you for helping to better do our jobs" but the NWS didn't want the radars: https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/11/21/radar-gaps-weather-service/ .

So, a few localities over the decades (Lubbock, TX was the first, I believe) have taken matters into their own hands and funded their own, usually after a major tornado occurs.

Why would the NWS not want the radars?

 

[Mike Smith]

Why would the NWS not want the radars?

You've got me!

There are two possible explanations:

• NWS was told by the Office and Management and Budget to say no for budgetary reasons but I cannot imagine that is the case. My DC friends who are in a position to know say that is not true.
• NWS thinks, even if they got extra money for maintenance, that managing 20 additional radars, in distant locations from their offices, was just too much trouble. For example, a radar in Paris, TX is a l-o-n-g way from any of their existing offices.

The NWS these days has many, many issues. They don't seem to be able to focus on their core mission and, as a result, tornado warnings are less accurate than they were a dozen years ago. The GFS is significantly inferior to the ECMWF and UKMET with no sign of the gap closing; that contributed to subpar warnings of Hurricane Ian. I could go on but those are sufficient to make my point.