Question regarding hurricane hunter missions

[JP Santiago]

Watching the progress of Hurricane Ike, it seems we're flying hurricane hunter missions into Ike even as it's in the vicinity of Cuba. I was under the impression that there as some prohibition on using Cuban airspace as several weeks ago Spirit Airlines was fined by the DoT for using Cuban airspace in violation of the trade embargo.

I can only surmise that hurricane hunter flights are exempted as they could be considered a humanitarian mission?

 

[B Ozanne]

Its not so much a humanitarian mission as it is to protect life and property. It is a scientific and military mission. The embargo was designed to prevent commerce and I'm sure it does not apply to hurricane research/forecasting.

Edit: Spirit wasn't fined for flying over Cuba, they were fined because they paid Cuba money for permission to use their airspace. You are allowed to use Cuban airspace, you just can't pay for it.

 

[JP Santiago]

Thanks for the quick reply, Bill.

I'll presume then that hurricane hunter flights would overfly Cuba as needed but that some sort of advance notification is needed with Havana?

 

[B Ozanne]

Thanks for the quick reply, Bill.

I'll presume then that hurricane hunter flights would overfly Cuba as needed but that some sort of advance notification is needed with Havana?

I don't know the exact answer, but at a minimum the same requirements must apply for any type of flight over a foreign country. Permission, flight plan, etc. Also keep in mind that the US military flies dozens, if not more, flights per day into Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. I'm sure airlines from other countries also routinely fly in Cuban airspace.

Remember, its not Cuba that really cares, its American law that prevents trade with Cuba.

 

[rdale]

It wasn't that long ago that recon flights were prohibited from flying over Cuba, regardless of the strength of the 'cane. Made for some touchy moments when you have no info on a major storm -- they sure weren't sending us radar data back then either

 

[Dennis Sherrod]

If these flights are the Air Force flights, they must obtain specific permission from the Cuban government to perform these flights over Cuban airspace. I'm not sure of the NOAA flights, but I would guess they have the same regulations.
Currently, the Air Force flights are not performed over the core while the hurricane is over Cuba. Once it comes off the coast, the Recon flights will resume as normal.

 

[Chris Nuttall]

If these flights are the Air Force flights, they must obtain specific permission from the Cuban government to perform these flights over Cuban airspace. I'm not sure of the NOAA flights, but I would guess they have the same regulations.
Currently, the Air Force flights are not performed over the core while the hurricane is over Cuba. Once it comes off the coast, the Recon flights will resume as normal.

This sounds correct, but I don't truthfully I know. I remember reading a Forecast Discussion from NHC earlier this season, maybe during Gustav, that recon flights had been suspended due to the storms proximity to Cuba.

 

[fplowman]

I may be wrong but Im unsure they would even know the plane was there. The plane flys above and into the hurricane. If they were able to see it on radar, again what would they do about it? Besides its benign scientific studies that they benefit from to begin with. Not like it would cause an international incident.

Maybe Im wrong and dont have enough information to make an opinion. Im certain as Dennis stated that there are "regulations" but Im sure they are self imposed.

I mean hell we have a base in Guantanamo Bay Cuba. I never understood all that anyways.

Im sure someone will post and enlighten me if Im incorrect.

Fred

 

[Nathan Truninger]

I may be wrong but Im unsure they would even know the plane was there. The plane flys above and into the hurricane. If they were able to see it on radar, again what would they do about it? Besides its benign scientific studies that they benefit from to begin with. Not like it would cause an international incident.

Maybe Im wrong and dont have enough information to make an opinion. Im certain as Dennis stated that there are "regulations" but Im sure they are self imposed.

I mean hell we have a base in Guantanamo Bay Cuba. I never understood all that anyways.

Im sure someone will post and enlighten me if Im incorrect.

Fred

Most likely the Cubans have newer Russian aeronautical/threat radar technology, in which case they could likely tell what type of aircraft it was that was flying over. P-3's don't exactly have the smallest RCS (Radar Cross Section) so they are very likely to be picked up.

 

[Wes Carter]

When I was in the Navy I remember the runway at Guantanamo sat right on the water. There were very strict airspace rules and standard approach/takeoff patterns were modified so not to encroach on Cuban airspace. But I was in back during the Cold War so things might have changed a bit.

I'm sure that Cuba would not allow the Hurricane Hunter to fly over Cuba knowingly. However, I seriously doubt they would risk losing one of their MIG's to the storm to intercept the Hurricane Hunter.

I'm interested in finally finding out the real scoop on this. You all have me wondering now.

 

[MClarkson]

US airliners fly over cuba ALL THE TIME. Every day. You just have to pay a little bit of money. This is true with many third world nations desperate for cash. Its cheaper to pay the cubans a little bit of money(through an intermediary, of course, as 'no direct dealings with cuba are allowed' by US DOC) than to burn all that extra fuel to fly around. You can use cuba as emergency alternates on your flight plan, you can fly through their airspace. Its routine and a complete non-issue. You just cant schedule a flight to land in cuba.

 

[Dennis Sherrod]

For Wesley and any others interested in knowing the details of the Air Force flights, they can look up the info on the 53rd Weather Reconnaissance Squadron.
Contrary to some beliefs of others, their flights and the recon paths taken are a major concern and are not considered a non-issue. They are highly regulated by all involved entities. Flying at a height of 10,000 feet or less in a criss cross pattern and grid patterns are much different than flying through their airspace with payoffs as MClarkson alleges.
The latest recon flights did not resume until the system moved off the coast of Cuba.
Further inquiries into exact details may be made through Major Chad Gibson of the 53rd Weather Reconnaissance Squadron. He would be the one to contact and could be able to give much more info on this should you have the desire to know.

ADDED INFO:
For additional info, see George Kourounis' report from yesterday of flying with the 53rd that also states having to obtain the permission once it was found the eye was still over Cuba. This is under the Hurricane Ike thread.

 

[B Ozanne]

I may be wrong but Im unsure they would even know the plane was there. The plane flys above and into the hurricane. If they were able to see it on radar, again what would they do about it? Besides its benign scientific studies that they benefit from to begin with. Not like it would cause an international incident.

Cuba has more than just weather radar, they know exactly where and when planes are flying over their airspace. I guarantee that the hurricane hunters follow all regulations and get permission where needed. Flying a military plane over another country without permission is an act of war. I'll refer you to the 1960's as to what they can do to retaliate.

 

[Rob Wadsworth]

".......Flying a military plane over another country without permission is an act of war. I'll refer you to the 1960's as to what they can do to retaliate......" Bill Ozanne

Yeah, that is true.
What kind of tech would Cuba have to tell the difference between the kinds of aircraft that would fly over?

If there would be a half dozen more hurricanes to ravage Cuba this year, they may give up their revolution and ask to be annexed as as the next state of the US. That is - if enough infrastructure was hammered sufficiently. Stranger things have happened...
LOL!

 

[rdale]

What kind of tech would Cuba have to tell the difference between the kinds of aircraft that would fly over?

A plane that zigzags around the eye of the hurricane? That's not Northwest Flight 782 to Brazil.

I'm pretty sure any military radar can pick things up like that.