Pligrim Films

[Lanny Dean]

MOD'S FEEL FREE TO MOVE THIS IF IN THE WRONG LOCATION:

Normally I do not discuss personal business deals or situations in a public light however, I felt the need to post this due to a conversation and situation with Pligrim Films that could affect other chasers who have sold or sent in video to them.

As some of you already know Pligrim Films is prepairing for a new show called "Destoryed In Seconds" The show is actually not new but will have a new twist and will be run concurrent with new episodes every week.

I was contacted by Pilgrim Films back in Jan. regarding the Mulvane event and was requested to send my video in. The producer (contact me via e-mail for the name) did not want and could not use a "copy" of the original video but requested that I overnight the original raw to him. He said that they were no longer accepting "copy's" and again requested the raw.
Interestingly enough I had just sold some video to Pilgim regarding another show a few weeks before this and had no issues in getting back my dubbed video, they also did not mention a "no copy rule" at that point.
Very unwillingly though I went ahead and sent out the video that afternoon with the promise via the phone conversation and a follow up e-mail that stated that as soon as they dubbed my raw, they would overnight it back to me.
In 19 years of selling video I usually do not send in the raw but....as requested by the producer and as a new "no copy rule" I did it.......

On March 5, 2009 I still had not received my video back, nor had I heard back from anyone after repeated phone calls (10 to be exact) and many many e-mails.
Through the month of March and until today(4-12-09) I placed many more calls and e-mails that apparently fell on def ears as well.

Finally today, after a very threatining phone call in which I informed them of legal action, I got a phone call back. They informed me that they could not send me back my "copy". I explained that I had sent in my RAW video and not a copy and that I was working with another production outlet that needed it ASAP. Again, they informed me that the producer said that it was a "copy" that I had sent in and all "copy's" sent in belonged to and were now owned by them. After a few choice words and a very heated conversation I decided to contact my attorney.

As of 4:30pm this afternoon and after my attorney sending a FORMAL fax (which cost me $250.00) to them, they are going to overnight me my raw video back.

If you have been contaced by Pligrim Films for this show, or have already sent in any video, raw or otherwise, it might be a good idea to contact them now to try and get your video back. I know per the conversation with the producer that they had quite a bit of stormchaser video they had received and I would hate for anything like this to happen to anyone else.

As of this post, I have lost the $ 7,000 with the other interested production company and lost the deal completly not to mention the $250.00 to my attorney.

If you are going to do business with this Production outlet please be very careful and make sure you do not make the same mistake I did.

Sorry for such a long post, just wanted all to know.

 

[Skip Talbot]

How do they know its a copy? Can't you just give them a copy and say its the original? I don't see what the problem with a "copy" is, especially if its digital media.

 

[Jeff Snyder]

How do they know its a copy? Can't you just give them a copy and say its the original? I don't see what the problem with a "copy" is, especially if its digital media.

Yeah, I don't get it. If they wanted it on MiniDV tape, why not just dub it onto another tape (even if you need to bring it onto your computer first before outputting it to your camcorder and a new tape). The whole "we can't take a copy" bit sounds extremely shady to me. If nothing else, did you not make a copy for yourself before sending the original in? In other words, did you send in your only copy? Unless you recorded on an analog format (e.g. old 8mm tape or something other than HDD, DVD, HDV, minDV, DV, or other digital formats), there's no difference between copies (assuming you aren't transcoding and have compression losses). That's like copying files on your computer and wanting the "original" file instead of the "copied" file.

 

[Shane Adams]

I wouldn't send a master out to anyone if a gun was to my head. Dub it off, say "sure, no problem", and send them a copy.

Just when I was seriously about to delve into stock video sales.....maybe I've been right all these years after all.

 

[Steve Miller TX]

If you dub it from DV tape to DV tape, what the hell difference does it make to them being that it is all digital? Am I missing something? (EDIT: as Lanny pointed out below, DV wasn't readily available back in 2004)

It seems that something like this is becoming more common...as in media entities trying to rip people off or being extremely difficult to deal/work with.

I had a situation recently where I was contacted by a national media resource to buy my wildfire video which was "pretty good stuff". I quoted them a VERY reasonable fee for a 7-day license for on-air use only. After I tried (and failed) to get a confirmation on the licensing use via email and while they were chomping at the bit for me to load the video, I eventually dragged out the fact that they wanted to use THEIR licensing agreement for perpetual (as in forever and ever) use to distribute to their "affiliates" and across all platforms. To make matters worse, they wanted my video FIRST and THEN talk to their legal department the next day to actually read, review and agree to THEIR licensing agreement. ROFL!!

The reply from the person I was talking to was that they had never heard of such a thing and work with many other stringers in this manner. I laughed and said that I would be happy to honor any licensing agreement but it would be MY license agreement and for what they were wanting, the price would have to be renegotiated for considerably more. They balked, I walked.

After some frustrating and p.i.a. ordeals last year with various media interests and so far this year, it is quickly becoming far too much effort in trying to deal with them anymore. Lanny's story is just another one of many, unfortunately.

 

[Mark Sudduth]

Is this the same outfit that had "Shockwave"?

 

[Lanny Dean]

Yeah, I don't get it. If they wanted it on MiniDV tape, why not just dub it onto another tape (even if you need to bring it onto your computer first before outputting it to your camcorder and a new tape). The whole "we can't take a copy" bit sounds extremely shady to me. If nothing else, did you not make a copy for yourself before sending the original in? In other words, did you send in your only copy? Unless you recorded on an analog format (e.g. old 8mm tape or something other than HDD, DVD, HDV, minDV, DV, or other digital formats), there's no difference between copies (assuming you aren't transcoding and have compression losses). That's like copying files on your computer and wanting the "original" file instead of the "copied" file.

Jeff, without sounding like an ass and please foregive me if it comes across that way (I really do not mean it that way honest) but I do not know how long you have been selling to production companies or networks...I have been selling to them since 1991 that said,
there comes a time when you will or are requested to do something you are not the most comfortable with like send in the original raw and against your better judgement (maybe due to the finacial gain....amount of money, promises made or whatever) you follow through with it anyway.
Over the last 18 years, I have been pretty lucky and have had only a few situations that required legal action or otherwise. For the most part, all has been good.
As far as dubbing it to mini DV, HD/DVD whatever or dumping it on the computer, If you are not familure with the Mulvane event, this was 5 years ago....HD cameras were not the norm. I shot said video on a High8 Sony camcorder with no real outputs excluding baseband A/V

Without discussing the ins and outs of my editing situation or equipment (I have a full AVID machine and Adobe CS3 full suite with Premier Pro, 64 bit x4 machine with 1 terrabite HD and 15 gig of RAM)
the fact of the matter remains that they wanted the raw.....thats what I sent them with the promise verbally and via e-mail of dubbing it and sending it right back to me with no more than a 5 day turn around.

Shame on me for sending the RAW? Hell yes, but after selling to them many times over the years...with a slight reservation I decided to do it.

My point of this thread was not to just point fingers and decline all responsibilty; it was to try and inform any and all people (chasers) who may have sold/sent in video to this production outlet that:
they may need to contact Pilgrim Films if indeed they were told the same thing I was or have dealt with the same producer(s)

Hope this helps clear up the editing questions.

 

[David Drummond]

I'm like Shane. NO ONE is getting an original recording from me. The only way they will is if they completely buy out the rights and so far no one has wanted to write those kind of zeros on a check.

In fact, I've even quit sending free, watermarked screener videos out because it wastes my time. They can put a deposit for the screener and apply it to the license if they license it.

Some companies are professionals and want to work with professionals, others are douchbags and want to act like douchbags. You have to treat them accordingly. Not everyone that wants your stuff is cool.

 

[Bill Hark]

Lanny, I am sorry that happened especially with a company that you trusted. I will certainly be extra careful with media companies.

Years ago, I dealt with a company that wanted my May 25, 1997 'Dillo Cam wedge footage. They wanted the original HI-8 tape. I said no and they eventually came around and bought my stuff.

Here is a another example on a local level. While working on my Eastern Fury compilation of tornado video, I contacted the videographer of one of the best shots of the LaPLate, MD F4 tornado. Unfortunately, he gave the original tape to a reporter in for a Washington, D.C. TV station with the expectation that the tape would be returned. The tape was "lost" and the station never even gave him a decent copy. He only had a crappy VHS dub that was starting to wear. Luckily, the TV station had sent a video clip of the best part via satellite to The Weather Channel and I was able to get a decent copy for my production and to give the videographer back a nice copy of his own video. Most production copies are nasty like who you dealt with but many are sloppy. Your experience is a nice warning to many new chasers who are dealing with production companies.

Bill Hark

 

[Bill Doms]

. In fact, I've even quit sending free, watermarked screener videos out because it wastes my time. They can put a deposit for the screener and apply it to the license if they license it.

EXACTLY!!! I had an issue with ABC and a producer from 20/20 a couple of years ago. It took me damn near 14 months to get paid. Since then, I started doing exactly what David describes and guess what? Not one issue since. If they are serious, they will put up the deposit. Oh, and if they do want the "original", just smile and "output to tape".

 

[Dick McGowan]

FWIW, we've been dealing with Pilgrim films for nearly 2 years now and have had no problems really...other than getting our money the first time. I think one of their problems is lack of communication (as they all seem to be) between different departments/divisions. Craig Pilgian is the owner of the company and they really have no real gain in screwing someone over since he's likely worth millions ( "Survivor"
producer at one time).

I never sent in my original copy of the tapes, but rather a duplicate we made.
More info on them:

http://www.pilgrim-films.com/company.html

 

[Lanny Dean]

FWIW, we've been dealing with Pilgrim films for nearly 2 years now and have had no problems really...other than getting our money the first time. I think one of their problems is lack of communication (as they all seem to be) between different departments/divisions. Craig Pilgian is the owner of the company and they really have no real gain in screwing someone over since he's likely worth millions ( "Survivor"
producer at one time).

I never sent in my original copy of the tapes, but rather a duplicate we made.
More info on them:

http://www.pilgrim-films.com/company.html

As you know Dick, I have been dealing with them on and off for nearly 7 years now.
Yes they have produced many great shows:
Bounty Girls, American Chopper, Dirty Jobs, Ultimate fighter....the list goes on and on.
I just sold them (before this situation) quite a bit of Greensburg,
7.5 minutes at $65 per second and they didnt even balk at that amount for the next "Tornado Show" (not the name of the show BTW) and I have never really had any issues with them except getting paid on time. I think you and I discussed that over the phone earlier this year, but for me it only takes getting screwed once.
A lost deal is a lost deal no matter how you cut it and it certainly leaves a bad tast in your mouth!
More importantly is the possible issue that other chasers may have to go through the same issues as I have. Yes they may be a reputable productions company but....isn't that why I sent the raw to them to begin with?

Anyways, all I am saying is if you have done or will be doing any business deals with them, please make sure you know exactly their expectations and they know yours, and get it in writting....an e-mail will work but it is still a lot of red tape to try and go through.
Also, make sure you have legal help....I would be in the dark without it!

 

[Jason Boggs]

I'm not one to have a lot of experience with selling footage to companies but...

Even sending raw footage to a reputable company has it's drawbacks.

What if the tape gets lost by the company or gets lost in the mail?
What if the tape gets ruined somehow?
Me personally, I would never send a company raw footage. To me, it's just not worth it.

 

[Warren Faidley]

Another BIG reason that you never want to send an original (RAW) tape is that there is almost always some segment of footage you would not want on TV. For example, a private conversation, or doing something that could make you look like an idiot, especially with selective editing. You also need to spell out the release, e.g., how the footage can be used: where (US or World), type of media (computer, TV or all) and time limits. You also need to note a payment due date, and no release is granted until you are paid. Never grant an exclusive unless it's mega-bucks. As others have noted, there is no need to send original footage with digital transfers. I will add a word of caution. I do know for a fact that some producers (not Pilgrim) are fishing for bad chaser behavior.... so be careful what you send out.

W.

 

[Shane Adams]

I do know for a fact that some producers (not Pilgrim) are fishing for bad chaser behavior.... so be careful what you send out.

Of course they are...it's the "Hollywood Syndrome" applied to chasing; they built chasers up into celebrities/stars, and now it's time to tear them down tabloid-style.

I'd be happy to contribute to the "bad chaser" behavior angle...they could film me beating the **** out of some POS producer for ****ty ethics and otherwise unprofessional representation of chasers. Surely some fly-by-night outfit would sacrifice a producer in the name of money