NWS not believing a report...

NWS and storm spotters

I had one incident on 10/01/02, I was tracking a storm in southern Blackhawk, Northern Benton County, Iowa (middle of nowhere) south of Laporte City, Iowa and was told by local EOC that the storm was indicated to be capable of producing 3/4 inch hail and had 3D shear by there LOCAL radar, (Waterloo) then the storm strenghthened more and I soon was told that the storm now still had 3D shear and was capable of producing 1.25 inch diameter hail!, but there was still no warning by the local NWS, I called the NWS and the gentlemen said that there radar didn't indicate 3D shear or large hail and so frustrated, I continued to track the storm and soon found myself shooting video of a beautiful wallcloud, (which was seen on the 5 or 6pm news)I called that in but still no severe storm warning was issued; I think this was a case of the NWS radar being to far away (Desmoines) to pickup this small brief severe storm?? That is the only "problem" I have ever encountered.
 
Re: NWS and storm spotters

Originally posted by Craig Maire II
I had one incident on 10/01/02, I was tracking a storm in southern Blackhawk, Northern Benton County, Iowa (middle of nowhere) south of Laporte City, Iowa and was told by local EOC that the storm was indicated to be capable of producing 3/4 inch hail and had 3D shear by there LOCAL radar, (Waterloo) then the storm strenghthened more and I soon was told that the storm now still had 3D shear and was capable of producing 1.25 inch diameter hail!, but there was still no warning by the local NWS, I called the NWS and the gentlemen said that there radar didn't indicate 3D shear or large hail and so frustrated, I continued to track the storm and soon found myself shooting video of a beautiful wallcloud, (which was seen on the 5 or 6pm news)I called that in but still no severe storm warning was issued; I think this was a case of the NWS radar being to far away (Desmoines) to pickup this small brief severe storm?? That is the only \"problem\" I have ever encountered.
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My dad lives in Cedar Rapids, which is why I know that the Linn/Benton County area is covered by DVN, so maybe thats where the discrepancy comes from. This brings up another question I had been meaning to ask: I'm skywarn trained through OKX (NYC area), but as this is my first year here in OK (OUN training later this month), I'm just wondering if you are given the phone numbers to adjacent offices when you're trained.
 
you can request them but all they usually do is tell you to call that office that you are planning on spotting for. Or what IWX said that if were in some other state and we spot something that we can call them (IWX northern IN) and they will relay it to Area office your responding for.
 
Never had anyone tell me I was a liar or my report was false, but have been met with pessimism many times on the other end of the line. My one main "huh??" moment from all my years chasing is my report of the May 4, 2001 tornado near Walters, OK

I took my video of this tornado to the NWS the next morning, where it was watched by a meteorologist. He actually acknowledged the tornado, saying "wow that's really well-developed." But since it was a Saturday morning, no one was really on-hand to take our official report on paper. Since we were chasing again that day, I blew it off until Monday.

Since that day, the report has never been listed, or even acknowledged. I've reported it a dozen times, via internet, phone, and in person. Each one was met with no reponse, or a "we'll have to look into that" and then no further response. It was a grungy, untypical set-up so you'd think they'd be interested. But I'd had a little tussle with OUN a few weeks before and I've always assumed they ignored the report because my name was attached to it. There's no other reason why they'd dismiss it.

One of these days I'm going to send the video to them with a note saying "you missed one."
 
Not exactly blown off, but: I've sent links to my site to both OAX and EAX in the past, and haven't even gotten a 'boo' in reply. OAX lotsa times, most recent was 22 May 2004. In fairness, I had nothing else to add that wasn't in the LSR, but still...

On 29 May 2004, I send photos and account to EAX, including vidcaps of what I'm pretty confident was a tornado which was DITORd and cop-reported, but nothing came of that, either--nothing in the LSR. Sent the same to Brian Busby at Channel 9, but nothing doing.
 
I want to stick up for the NWS a bit since I did a volunteer bit at a local office when I was an undergrad, and we had to deal with two issues concerning the accuracy of reports.

One is extreme amount of information that this office had coming in during severe weather events. I often was on the phone taking the reports myself, which was fine, I wrote them down on the LSR sheet without question, and we moved on. Primarily the information went into the severe weather statements. Sending LSRs to the SPC page was secondary. The office I was at would often compile lists that would be released individually with storm summaries - but these often would be on the individual web page, and could take days to compile if the weather pattern was particularly active. So the account very well may be written down and recorded, but it may not be on the prelim SPC reports or on the NCDC page. I believe each office has their own individual records.

The second issue is false alarms. On one particular evening in 2002 we got a call screaming about a tornado on the ground just north of a town of 25,000. The velocity data didn't support tornadic activity and it was the only report we had. Still, Hastings went with the report, and issued a tornado warning for the county which had to include the town because of the location of where the spotter said they were. The report turned out to be totally bogus, it was 50 mile an hour winds, and the supposed 'destroyed mobile home' turned out to be an overblown trailer. If the NWS didn't have to worry about false alarms, it would be a lot easier to blow the horn at every report. But they have to put bad reports onto their false alarm ledger.

And just remember, the NWS doesn't have the best data network possible to work with. The radars only see so much, and when you get a ways from the radar site, the velocity and reflectivity data become less refined and more elevated. You can have a beautiful wall cloud, for instance, but if the rotation isn't well organized or deep in the storm, how is the NWS supposed to see it on radar? You'll catch these guys and gals off guard once in a while. I had a hail report last May that caught the office completely off guard because it was a mini supercell day and the convection was extremely narrow, and the conditions of the day weren't favorable for severe weather. But it happened anyway. We caught a beautiful tornado on the day of the Aurora hailstone in Nebraska, and spent a year talking to the local NWS about the accuracy of the report, even with both of us being advanced meteorology students and both having photography. If it doesn't really show up on the survey (and when you get 4-5 inches of rain in the same area, hard to find weak tornado damage), it's really hard to verify that it existed.

Also remember that these guys are in a life/death situation when they are in severe weather mode, so they are under pressure. I guess (to end this little rant) what I'm saying is try to give the NWS a little bit of slack when you can. The best advice is to make yourself known personally to your local forecasters; let them know you are interested in the local weather and are doing what you can to help. You will be recognized when you call in reports, which makes things easier for you and adds credibility to your report, which makes things better for everybody. There was nothing like hearing a report of hail, rotation, or a tornado from somebody you know knows exactly what they are seeing and can accurately communicate exactly where they are at.
 
The OAX office has always taken MY reports seriously including the 6/13/04 tornado that was much too close to Lincoln and it's eastern suburb. My report quickly made it to the local TV with exact wording. A trust factor I guess. Be sure to get to know the folks in your local NWSFO.
I think if everyone knew how to properly place a report to the NWS than there would be less problems. This may be second nature to many here but I will post anyway.

- Be quick, clear, and calm

- Identify yourself and if you are a trained or untrained storm spotter/chaser

- What is the severe weather? (e.g. tornado on the ground, large hail, wind damage)

- Magnitude of event (e.g. baseball size hail, quarter mile wide tornado, etc.)

- Location of the severe weather (e.g. 4 miles NW of Aurora, NE)

- Brief desciption of damage if appicable (e.g. tree down blocking Hwy 36)

- Direction moving (if applicable)

- Provide any additional information that may be requested

- Submit additional reports should the situation worsen

What should be reported?

Tornadoes
Funnel Clouds
Rotating Wall Clouds
Hail > 0.75"
Wind > 58 mph
Other, with damage
Flash Floods

What should not be reported?

Scud or tornado look-a-likes
Small hail (e.g. pea size)
Gusty wind (< 58 mph) with no damage
"The sky looks bad"
"Um, uh, well..."
"There are lowerings everywhere!"
"Holy S---!"
"I would like a large supreme..."
 
lets say dime size hail, and the storm on radar doesn't show it capable of producing it, fine its severe and they should issure a warning. Now, what if during the time it takes for them to type up the warning, get it ready to be sent out, etc. a new radar frame appers showing the storm in a weakened state. Since it never showed up severe to start with and since the severe weather report was boarderline hail, they may make the choice not to issure the warning since in all likelyhood it was no longer severe.

IMO, its better to miss an event here/there, as long as its not major, then to have warnings flying everytime there is a thunderstorm or worse yet have warnings that last 10 mins. and then are cancelled.
 
Originally posted by Jay McCoy
Why they had an intern answering the phone I have no clue.
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Why wouldn't they? They're just as likely to be working severe weather as the "regular" meteorologists.

At our office during especially large events during business hours, we've even had the electronics staff and the secretary taking reports. Granted, if the person on the phone asks for any kind of radar interpretation, they have to get someone else on the line, but it is helpful when the phone is ringing off the hook.

Having said that, we rarely get chasers or spotters calling us (ILX) directly. Usually it's the emergency managers calling us, as they insist on their spotters relaying data to them first. However, some of these EM's seem to have different definitions of what constitutes "severe" weather (i.e. "we only had some trees blown down, no big deal"). We also had one county EM (recently retired) who basically refused to talk to us and would intentionally hold back reports when we tried to call them.

Since Illinois is generally not a significant "chase" area, we usually don't get any real-time reports from chasers, especially since we don't include the 800 number in the warning text. If we do get calls, we'll take the information, but there is still a bit of question since we really don't know these people.

Chris G.
 
The only time I was doubted on a severe report was several years ago when a midnight storm rolled through dumping golf-ball hail. When I called the initial report, I wasn't beneath the hail core. The on duty dude I spoke with seemed hesitant as the radar wasn't showing anything too spectacular. He changed his mind when I called a second time BENEATH the core and he could easily hear the pounding my vehicle was taking. A SEVERE warning was issued within a couple minutes following that! :lol:
 
As some have hinted at, the warning decision making process is a very fluid, highly non-linear process. A degree of subjectivity, instinct, gut feeling...it all enters into it. Just as forecasting has at its heart a bit of the artist, so too does the warning process.

If you have a report, but a storm that looks like it is dying, issuing a warning will lead to not only a missed event, which you've already had and can't avoid, but also a false alarm, which I think we can all agree is detrimental to the communities we (NWS/chasers/spotters) serve.

Also beware of using radar algorithm output. They are highly error prone and are more likely to be used as a "safety net" for those situations where a warning met is overloaded and might miss something. No one EVER sees 1.5" in the hail size box of the storm table and pulls the trigger. Threat assessment, storm interrogation, near-storm environment knowledge...all of this and more goes into the decision.

Situations like Tony's are a great example of why it is always important to be as detailed and precise as possible when reporting severe weather. (Not to say that you weren't, Tony, but some do overlook some of these things at times.) "I am at such and such a town and such and such is happening such and such distance to my NW at this time." We LOVE reports like that. It makes our job that much easier, and improves the service we provide to the public.
 
Originally posted by Joe Nield
Situations like Tony's are a great example of why it is always important to be as detailed and precise as possible when reporting severe weather. (Not to say that you weren't, Tony, but some do overlook some of these things at times.)
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Joe,

I know I wasn't as precise as I should've been! Those were my early days of spotting, and I'm sure that had a lot to do with it! I've learned a bit since then, and now give very precise reports! But the background noise of hail smashing your car always helps! :wink: :lol:
 
Boy does this bring back memories! I have been in Skywarn for years,and to setup the story I work in the weather industry. Reports from me always showed up . I would get personal thanks and pats on the back. Then the local weather office was closed. Now only one office in the state. I knew no one in the new office. Anything called in was met with " I know that can not be happing". Later I was sent to school for Emergency Mangers. Got a job with a research group,and moved up. Still reports from our area got file 13 treatment. When sent to class to learn the new doppler radar operations I ran into a top level manager from NOAA. He was tradeing war stories with a group of other class mates. Never one to miss a good war story I jumped in,and told of our report story. I never thought any more about it. About a month later my phone rings and it the state OES wanting me to come to the state office. A one hour drive. Thought I was in big trouble. I get there to find they want me to work with the new wcm on the state Skywarn Program. I almost passed out. Turns out every one in the office was transfered out and all new folks brought in.
To this day if I call in a report and someone say no way. I can count on a call the next day telling me that it will not happen again. I of course had no plans to clear this office out. But it turned out that an audit found no one was operateing the skywarn program. And no one wanted too.
Names and location left out to protect the names and rep's...
 
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