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New Leadership at NHC?

rdale

EF5
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
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Sounds like Proenza's concern for the future of hurricane forecasting could be leading him to a nice job in the private sector...

Pressure builds for storm chief

The controversial director of the

National Hurricane Center came under additional scrutiny as a federal team of experts conducted an unannounced inspection.

BY MARTIN MERZER

http://www.miamiherald.com/460/story/158757.html
 
Tempest deepens

Forecasters want storm director ousted

"Three senior forecasters at the National Hurricane Center called Tuesday for the ouster of recently appointed director Bill Proenza, saying he has damaged public confidence in their forecasts, fractured morale and lost their support..."

BY MARTIN MERZER

http://www.miamiherald.com/459/story/159712.html
 
It's quite interesting that all the leads have spoken out...

-John

Azz kissing, IMO. The career minded person will join the hunting party when the "witch" hunt is on faster than Chuck Schumer can find a television camera. Proenza fairly criticized NOAA for spending (or what many consider wasting) millions of taxpayer dollars for what amounts to a big party while technology used to more accurately forecast storm systems goes to the wayside. The merrits and expense of QuickScat can be debated but I see no reason why the public shouldn't be aware of potential implications should the satellite fail.

"Three senior forecasters at the National Hurricane Center called Tuesday for the ouster of recently appointed director Bill Proenza, saying he has damaged public confidence in their forecasts, fractured morale and lost their support..."

The only thing the public has lost confidence in is NOAAs ability to manage resources appropriately. I don't see how morale is fractured when your leader is lobbying for additional funding for your organization. The alleged loss of morale is probably a result of NOAA directors unwillingness to be challenged/debated in the court of public opinion. NOAA is not a publically traded firm that kisses up to shareholders. It is a government organization that must answer to the taxpayers. Proenza is the whistleblower on behalf of the taxpayers and for that I give him greater respect. It is unfortunate NOAA leadership has become extremely hostile in this regard. Government leadership at its finest. If only we had more "mavaricks" like Proenza floating around.
 
The career minded person will join the hunting party when the "witch" hunt is on ....


I'd be surprised - after all these guys are all senoir forecasters - so their careers are quite secure. I'd actually think if anything Proenza has insulted them by his statements. Sure, the data is helpful to the hurricane forecasters, and does have some value in improving at least some of the model guidance available to forecasters, but it's an insult to the skill of the forecasters themselves to suggest that their forecast skill is directly tied to the quality of NWP guidance, particularly from only one model. Forecasters I imagine take great pride in their skill - and for your boss to suggest that your skill is no better than the skill of the guidance that you use - well that's not going to win him any popularity contests. So, would loss of the Quikscat actually impact forecasts from NHC? Probably, but to quatify it is very difficult. It would appear though that the tool is not deemed as more valuable than forecaster pride for many of the senior forecasters at NHC.

Glen
 
... but it's an insult to the skill of the forecasters themselves to suggest that their forecast skill is directly tied to the quality of NWP guidance, particularly from only one model. Forecasters I imagine take great pride in their skill - and for your boss to suggest that your skill is no better than the skill of the guidance that you use - well that's not going to win him any popularity contests...
Glen

Forecast models when used appropriately can improve forecasts and when used inappropriately can hinder forecasts. I can honestly say my forecast verification would decrease without the aid of various NWP products and much more so without the aid of data. My verification would also decrease significantly if I solely relied on the model QPF output rather than my synoptic and mesoscale analysis, situational awareness, pattern recognition, knowledge of climo, etc. Lets take away all satellite data including IR and VIS and see how good the hurricane forecasts are. Only a fool could claim his forecast skill would be unchanged (assuming skill in this case is tied directly to verification). The NHC has boasted their forecast track errors have decreased significanly over the last 20 years. This is probably due to a combination of increased knowledge of tropical cyclones, better data, and better NWP. In short, no forecaster I know wants to lose data even if only of minor use.

Forecasters from my experience do take great pride in their skill but in this case I think the NHC folks have confused knowledge with skill. Nobody wants their intelligence insulted as these forecasters suggest happened. Unless I'm missing something between the media lines, all I see is a director who is trying to get more data so his forecasters can better utilize thier knowledge. I do get a sense that these forecasters believe the QuickScat satellite data is "overrated" in the eyes of Proenza. Perhaps it is. Science is full of debate and this one is worth continuing. Would this even be an issue if Proenza didn't chastize NOAA for the party spening? I still have the feeling there is some bandwagon hopping going on here.
 
Looks like you do need to read in between the lines... As it's now coming out - for whatever reason he is saying that QuikScat is more important than recon planes and is willing to risk reducing funds for aircraft to develop a new satellite. I'm no tropical expert, but I see a major flaw there...
 
Just a quick two cents, I don't think Proenza was trying to suggest that Quikscat data was more important than recon, that was misconstrued by the media and by congress. In regards to the forecasters, I still wonder how any of this actually underminds their abilities. I do know Rich Knabb wanted that job, and Proenza was basically just appointed to it.

Someone has to fight for hurricane research funds as they have been steadily cut. I will say more focus should have been put on the Joint Hurricane Testbed (JHT) rather than Quikscat. Although valuable over the open Atlantic, I think we can deal without for a while if that is the case.
 
I don't think it's really going to hurt the public response to tropical warnings. Again a lot is being played out simply because it's in the media, but agree that while fighting for funds is the job of a center head -- make sure you're coming out fighting for the right tools.
 
Didnt I say the quikscat was relatively unimportant in the last thread we had about this?


"QuikScat is another tool that we use to forecast," Lixion Avila said. "The forecast will not be degraded if we don't have the QuikScat."


http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/05/hurricane.furor/index.html

while not completely useless, quikscat is pretty near the bottom of things I look at for the tropics.


anyway, i know whos side im taking in this.


Franklin and Avila... i remember their names on NHC forecast discussions since i first started looking at them like 10 years ago, and I know Avila has been around a lot longer than that. Proenza... never heard of him till Max retired.
 
It's interesting that senior forecasters would say the loss of any semi-reliable data (I assume it's semi-reliable, otherwise I don't think we'd ever see it used in the forecast process or in the advisory discussions) would not have any negative impact on forecasts. From my casual forecasts through the past 6 years (chasing-related and otherwise), one of the things that I quickly learned is that it's important to realize that, sometimes, my forecasts are terrible. Sometimes it's my fault for ignoring something, and other times it's a situation that had very low predictability. In all cases, however, it's just as important to remember what we DON'T KNOW as it is to remember what we DO KNOW. In other words, realizing one's short-comings and limitations, IMO, is very important if one is to forecast well on a consistent basis (I know we've all been "cocky" from time to when we're on a stretch of "good" forecasts, only to be knocked down abruptly when Ma Nature shows us that we aren't as good as we think we are).

In the chasing realm, most of us who have been chasing or forecasting for more than a couple of years realize the limitations of numerical models and our understanding of the atmosphere. Perhaps, after decades of experience, some people don't really need every tool available to them, but I don't think that I'll ever get to the point at which I'm confident enough to say that I don't need satellite data (or other data, for that matter). Sure, some data are not weighed very heavily in my forecases, but I can't imagine that would be the case for satellite-derived winds in areas over the ocean where measured data is otherwise non-existant.
 
The problems with quikscat data are many; The relatively low-orbiting satellite can survey a given spot of ocean only about once a day. Velocity data is often(always?) suspect with the quikscat winds and it cant peer into the CDO very well, especially the eyewall. Its resolution isnt quite what the plane can do either. The recon aircraft also return much more than just wind data, and at many levels if you count the occasional dropsonde.


If a plane is in the storm I probably wouldnt even look at the quikscat derived winds. Even in the deep ocean I think a strength estimate based on more conventional images(Dvorak technique, etc) is not only just as if not more accurate, but far more timely as well.


The one thing I do like to see a quikscat for is a developing deep ocean disturbance, especially to determine if circulation has closed off.
 
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The one thing I do like to see a quikscat for is a developing deep ocean disturbance, especially to determine if circulation has closed off.

This is a different topic if it's an EITHER / OR situation. In other words, is it either recon or QuikSat?

At any rate, recon usually doesn't fly out for disturbances well in the central or eastern Atlantic. So, we could depend solely on ships that happen to provide enough evidence that the circulation has closed off, or we could use a tool that is at least better than nothing. From a human impact point of view, recon is very important, particularly since the storms that tend to garner the most attn from recon are those that are likely to impact land areas in the western Atlantic. However, I find it odd to hear that the forecast process will not be affected by losing a tool such as Quikscat, particularly for those disturbances and/or storms that are away from the recon domain. Gosh knows that some tropical storm forecasts are absymal to begin with. This seems particularly to be true of weak systems (and those undergoing cylcogenesis) and for those with rapid variation in intensity (i.e. those that are rapidly intensifying or rapidly weakening). Can you ever be confident enough on your forecast to say that the loss of this tool will have no negative impact on your forecast, particularly given that some tropical systems are poorly forecast to begin with? [I certainly don't think quiksat is the end-all and be-all, otherwise I would hope we'd see excellent forecasts for every system/storm that moves through the Atlantic each year. As it is, I'd have to think that more soundings would help... Can we set up a system by which ships or buoys can release RAOBs? LOL] Even if the Quikscat data are only used a handful of times during the season, it still seems imprudent to say "The forecast will not be degraded if we don't have the QuikScat." (per a quote from Avila in the CNN article below).

I'm not incredibly well-versed in tropical storm forecasting and analysis, so my thoughts above should not be weighed too heavily. However, I thought I'd give my 2 cents. Ah, the political... err... forecast process.

We have at least one (and, I think two) NHC forecasters on Stormtrack, so it'd be interesting to hear what they have to say. As it is, given the circumstances, though, I wouldn't be surprised if these members don't feel it appropriate to comment.

EDIT: This subject is now the lead story on CNN.com --> http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/05/hurricane.furor/index.html ... I really have to think there's more to this story than we know. Personality conflicts? I don't know, but it really sounds like politics is flirting with science again (I'm *shocked*... .... ....). I can't imagine a group petitioning to remove their boss while in hurricane season. Apparently, it's severe enough that it can't wait until after hurricane season. There has to be more to this story than just some folks upset that their boss said forecast quality would decrease if Quikscat "died".

EDIT 2: Here's a little better article (and includes the names of those who have signed the petition)--> Storm director's staff revolt widens: The staff rebellion at the National Hurricane Center grew dramatically, with nearly two dozen employees calling for the departure of director Bill Proenza. (Miami Herald). Per that article, the petition for resignation includes "Lixion Avila, James Franklin, Rick Knabb and Richard Pasch; hurricane forecasters Eric Blake, Dan Brown and Michelle Mainelli; meteorologists Wally Barnes, Robert Berg, John Cangialosi, Hugh Cobb, Martin Nelson, Gladys Rubio, Chris Sisko and Patricia Wallace; oceanographer Stephen Baig; executive officer Ahsha Tribble; administrative officer Vivian Jorge; and Proenza's administrative assistant, Evangelina Maruly." Now I'd REALLY be interesting in hearing from the NHC folks who are Stormtrack members...
 
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This is just rediculous in my opinion. He's the head of the NHC, and he lives in the United States. He has a right to voice his opionion about whether Quickscat should be replaced or not. Why are they complaining about him thinking it should be replaced. If he doesnt like the superiors in Washington, thats his perogative. I think there's more to the story than it sounds. Maybe they dont like the fact they werent promoted to head of the NHC. :rolleyes:
 
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