More tornado tour groups encountering dangerous weather

[Warren Faidley]

This video clip (link below) shows yet another tour group driving customers into massive hail. Most disgusting, the owners of the company are promoting this like it was something to be proud of, or just another funny and fun event. With radar and good navigation, this is totally unnecessary, and most of all, nothing to "joke" about. No liability release will excuse the tour owner from negligence and they had better cross their fingers no one zaps them for endangerment.

There are also unconfirmed reports of the same group driving at excessive speeds and running stop signs per social media posts. However, in fairness, we don't know how they ended up there, but from the video, it does not seem like a navigation mistake, blocked road, disabled vehicle, etc.

It would be interesting to see how the Kansas State Patrol, The Kansas Attorney General's office and the NTSB feels about this. Hopefully no disgruntled chaser will push the issue.

Once more, the other tours groups seem to be ignoring this as just another "mishap," mystically emerging from a pattern of negligent behavior by a handful of chasers.

With insurance companies bailing on a monthly basis, it's going to be impossible to insure tour groups in the future.

Clip is here:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152493677804169&set=vb.166805519168&type=2&theater

 

[Logan Karsten]

I love how they are initially pointed towards the oncoming hail…… Not so much fun and games when glass is shattering into your face.

 

[Joshua Nall]

I'm all for people doing what they want, as long as the law is obeyed (this is even becoming less of an issue for me as we have more and more stupid laws) and they aren't hurting anyone else. Some people join up for tours for the very reason of seeing something like this at least once! Who's to say they knew it was going to be that big? And pointing into it is really the best for vans isn't it, since the front window will largely stay intact? I've heard side windows or more expensive. The fact that risky behavior will make it harder to insure in the future is really the only problem I see. Even the risk that someone will try to sue if injured is a risk that some are willing to take I guess. What stinks is that folks can't just have fun, getting busted in big hail, or even "too close" to a tornado, without backlash and the fear of legal stuff, however important it may be. I'm not saying it's no issue, something really serious may happen where there is a big lawsuit one day, I'm just saying it stinks.

One of the fun things that I do is I'll jump out and if there is a dark cloud background, look up and you can see the hail whizzing toward you. It's like you are shooting through the stars, it's like snow only much faster. And it won't fall in straight lines if it isn't round. You can see it for quite a ways out and as long as there is not much of it you can dodge it or even try to catch it. Of course you have to always keep your eye toward the sky so one doesn't catch you. It's fun!... but most people wouldn't understand and have no interest, haha! Its just something else fun while your out, especially if other weather stuff is slow. I've only tried smaller than quarter, but I'll catch a golfball next year. I mean any noob can pick a piece of hail up off the ground... I wonder at what size you would need a glove.

 

[Stan Rose]

However, in fairness, we don't know how they ended up there

That's right, and from my perspective it doesn't look intentional to me, they try to get out of the hail once it started pummeling the vehicle. I've only had my windshield taken out once by gorilla hail (the video is online somewhere--I didn't post it but I think it's pretty amusing) and when it happened, the baseballs were falling out of blue skies, and thousands of other cars got similar damage. To be successful at chasing, you have to be at least somewhat aggressive in navigation, and that increases your chance of getting hit by big hail. If anything, my lack of success the last couple of years is convincing me I have to be a little bit more willing to get some hail damage. I agree that well-known chasers have a certain amount of responsibility in promoting responsible behavior, but honestly, this personal vendetta against one particular chaser is growing a bit old.

 

[Mark Ellinwood]

Had the same thoughts RE: Tour group safety and insurance and how tour companies are showing it off rather than trying to conceal it. I personally would not join a tour group that makes light of such damage by promoting videos of their clients being in danger.

It's not really that hard to stay out of damaging hail or debris. Just means that sometimes you may be a bit further away from the storm than you'd like to be.

 

[Warren Faidley]

However, in fairness, we don't know how they ended up there

That's right, and from my perspective it doesn't look intentional to me, they try to get out of the hail once it started pummeling the vehicle. I've only had my windshield taken out once by gorilla hail (the video is online somewhere--I didn't post it but I think it's pretty amusing) and when it happened, the baseballs were falling out of blue skies, and thousands of other cars got similar damage. To be successful at chasing, you have to be at least somewhat aggressive in navigation, and that increases your chance of getting hit by big hail. If anything, my lack of success the last couple of years is convincing me I have to be a little bit more willing to get some hail damage. I agree that well-known chasers have a certain amount of responsibility in promoting responsible behavior, but honestly, this personal vendetta against one particular chaser is growing a bit old.

There is no personal vendetta against anyone. I've made that clear before and so have others who are offended by the constant reckless behavior, bogus forecasts, fake self-labeling, etc., etc.

When one chaser is causing the majority of issues, that's just the way it is -- I don't give a hoot who it is. No one chaser should be above any other chaser and have the exclusive right to dictate how chasing is defined and get away with it time after time. These are not fictional accusations based on "vendettas", but real events that are documented each time they happen.

You may not agree, but don't come down on those who are willing to take a stand.

W.

Edit: And I should add, I do take it personal when a chaser is disrupting business to the point where insurance is getting impossible to find. Multiple insurers monitor Facebook and they are becoming increasingly aware of the antics. Even attorneys are getting into the act as I've talked to them myself as they begin to troll for clients. I know a lot of chasers can't imagine how one idiot can ruin it for everyone, but trust me, the day will come when even personal insurers, rental car companies, and others will no longer cover you while chasing.

 

[Warren Faidley]

Had the same thoughts RE: Tour group safety and insurance and how tour companies are showing it off rather than trying to conceal it. I personally would not join a tour group that makes light of such damage by promoting videos of their clients being in danger.

It's not really that hard to stay out of damaging hail or debris. Just means that sometimes you may be a bit further away from the storm than you'd like to be.

This is good point. If you don't have the forecasting knowledge to understand what a radar is showing, you have no business being near a storm with a van full of people. And anytime you have baseball hail that should be a hint that a very strong updraft is nearby and thus a tornado risk somewhere close.

W.

 

[John Hudson]

Had the same thoughts RE: Tour group safety and insurance and how tour companies are showing it off rather than trying to conceal it. I personally would not join a tour group that makes light of such damage by promoting videos of their clients being in danger.

It's not really that hard to stay out of damaging hail or debris. Just means that sometimes you may be a bit further away from the storm than you'd like to be.

I guess I often have a tendency to look on the bright side, and the fact that over time, irresponsible behavior often takes care of itself. If some of the tour groups start getting denied coverage by insurance companies, some of them will end up getting grounded.

The result? More room on the roads for the rest of us.

John
VE4 JTH

 

[Stan Rose]

If this is so financially damaging, then why do you think the other tour companies are so 'unconcerned'?



Once more, the other tours groups seem to be ignoring this as just another "mishap," mystically emerging from a pattern of negligent behavior by a handful of chasers.

 

[Warren Faidley]

If this is so financially damaging, then why do you think the other tour companies are so 'unconcerned'?



Once more, the other tours groups seem to be ignoring this as just another "mishap," mystically emerging from a pattern of negligent behavior by a handful of chasers.

If this is so financially damaging, then why do you think the other tour companies are so 'unconcerned'?



Once more, the other tours groups seem to be ignoring this as just another "mishap," mystically emerging from a pattern of negligent behavior by a handful of chasers.

This is actually a very good question.

First of all, I don't think any of the major tour group owners are ST active, so who knows how they feel or if they are even aware, or care. They will be soon enough. My chase-related insurance was cancelled in April, and I had to scramble to find coverage for clients. Underwriters have been struggling to define chasing risks for years, and have been overly acceptable of chasing, but with fools bragging about close calls and YouTube videos showing poor judgement, what do you you expect? Is this how we want chasing defined?

Secondly, chasers generally don't want to rock the boat. I'm assuming some are reluctant to become proactive for several reasons, mostly because they fear the labeling that comes with any criticism, e.g., having a vendetta or being hateful. I can't blame them.

Most chasers have no business interest in chasing so who cares, although I think this will all trickle down to everyone in the future.

W.

 

[Royce Sheibal]

I by no means am a professional chaser, but I'd like to consider myself an experienced chaser with scholarly background. A few years back my wife made me adopt three rules for chasing.
Never Chase Alone, Never Chase in the Dark, and Never Chase Blind (without radar assist).
The rest of the rules of chasing I'd like to think are more obvious. Drive the speed limit unless required. Be aware of local law enforcement and play by their rules. Be mindful of other motorists. If the police and community don't correct these behaviors, karma will...
And as for hail. My goals for chasing are as follows: 1. Don't Die Today 2. Don't get hailed on 3. See Tornadoes. In that Order.

 

[Stan Rose]

For the record, I am all for pointing out reckless and irresponsible behavior that gives storm chasing a bad name, and I applaud anyone (particularly better known chasers) who have the guts to call a spade a spade.
I just think this is a pretty mild example, I've seen much worse from many in this biz--that's why it comes off as odd to me that you single it out. Obviously marketing yourself as "Extreme Storm Chasing" and then taking your group to a nice sunny location 15 miles from the storm so you can view the tornado through a telescope are a bit incompatible. Whether the very idea of 'extreme chasing' is a good thing or not is debatable, but like Joshua I prefer to let live and let live so long as someone isn't screwing things up for me. It may be true that insurance companies etc will crack down (I used to rent cars when I chased from the west coast, and return them hail-dented and totaled...I doubt I could get away with that these days!) but it could also be argued that all the attention the more 'extreme' chasers bring storm chasing ultimately means a lot more money for everyone that makes any money off of chasing (and there are plenty of us who do, even if like in my own case it's just beer money!)

 

[Stan Rose]

I by no means am a professional chaser, but I'd like to consider myself an experienced chaser with scholarly background. A few years back my wife made me adopt three rules for chasing.
Never Chase Alone, Never Chase in the Dark, and Never Chase Blind (without radar assist).
The rest of the rules of chasing I'd like to think are more obvious. Drive the speed limit unless required. Be aware of local law enforcement and play by their rules. Be mindful of other motorists. If the police and community don't correct these behaviors, karma will...
And as for hail. My goals for chasing are as follows: 1. Don't Die Today 2. Don't get hailed on 3. See Tornadoes. In that Order.

Speaking of speeding...a few weeks back when I was chasing in KS, doing about 75 in a 65 zone, I had three tour vans pass me at over 100 mph on a two lane road with heavy traffic. All for a crappy HP that never really produced. I mean, was that really necessary? Then, a short while later when I pulled over to shoot some video, another tour group (seems like everyone was running tours this year...) pulled over and the two leaders/drivers were arguing over how fast they should be going. So obviously the speed issue is a big one.

And as for hail, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of chasers avoid hail primarily to avoid damage and/or an early end to the chase. If I had the resources I'd completely hail proof my vehicle and drive through the grapefruits gleefully!

 

[James Gustina]

And as for hail, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of chasers avoid hail primarily to avoid damage and/or an early end to the chase. If I had the resources I'd completely hail proof my vehicle and drive through the grapefruits gleefully!

It really is a personal preference I guess. I enjoy hail and considering Andrew's old Jeep couldn't be ruined by hail dents I'm all for big hail on occasion. Now driving a van full of people into large hail isn't exactly what I'd call a great decision but if the tour group wants to do it then by all means they can. Especially considering they're offering an extreme tour, I don't find the driving into hail all that problematic.

Now the traffic violations would be a serious issue but the uncertainty of the circumstances sort of make it hard to point a finger. Obviously rental companies won't be keen on letting chasers take their cars out if they get hail-totaled cars back but that has two easy solutions:
1. Drive out there and save yourself the trouble
2. Attempt to avoid hail at all costs

 

[Dan Robinson]

I've always wanted to hear from an inside source regarding what the actual calculated liability risk a storm chasing tour poses to an underwriter. They have formulas for all of this to determine what can be covered, what premiums should be, etc. Given that whitewater rafters, ski resorts, skydiving outfits, race tracks, Mount Everest climbing guides, etc apparently can still be insured despite a long history of deaths and injuries in those activities, I wonder why an underwriter would suddenly raise an eyebrow at storm chasing. Even if a tour caused a claim-triggering incident, all I'd see happening is maybe a jump in premiums across the board. Sort of like what happens when a region gets hit by a few major tornadoes. That's assuming they're basing their coverage offerings on actual real-world incident/claim figures.

Although, admittedly the pool of premium-paying outfits is very small in chase tours - and I guess it's not hard to see why an underwriter might find the risk of a payout for a major incident far exceeding what is coming in in premiums from everyone.