Location of event

[Tim Shriver]

Howdy,

This past three days our group has been chasing down reports
of tornadoes and wind damage.
One thing has become clear. The locations that are given for the
event or the location of themselves, many if not most of the time are
incorrect.

We had reports from local chasers say a tornado was skipping and jumping
around a little ways North of such and such. (they did give a location)
When I asked for something more specific they became unhappy with me.
A "little ways North" doesn't work.

Other reports were also off on their locations.
But most of those were public, ham or LEO.

This combined with the high rate of errors when it came to locations
makes me think.

Is there a better way to indicate the location of the spotter and/or
the weather event when submitting a storm report?

Chasers and how they do it interest me as they transverse different
states, counties, WFO's. Each may have a different way of doing things.

Do you use?

Roads and intersections?

Preset reference points?

GPS Lat/Long?

Famous structure (like next to the Ford Dealership west of town)

What works best for you?

When you have an "aloft event" like a tornado, wall cloud, funnel do
you try to guess the distance the event is from you or just give the direction
you are looking?

I suspect that many tornadoes still go unverified because we can not
find the damage indicators due to locations reported being off.
Granted miles and miles of 10 foot tall corn does make it hard.

I like the GPS idea. But not sure how widely it would be accepted from
WFO to WFO and group to group. We use it to a limited degree.

Tim

 

[Chris Nuttall]

The GPS is all good if they are actually sitting in the middle of it. This works for hail and high wind. However, a tornado will always require an estimated position for the person that's witnessing. There's no way to get around it. You're always going to have errors in timing and position (spotter reporting their position and not the tornado's). This is simply calling to fall on that reporter.

I run a DeLorme GPS/Street Atlas solution on my laptop, but this can be done using paper maps, too. I'll estimate the distance and direction the feature is from myself. Next, I'll look at my laptop and find that spot on the screen and eyeball it to the nearest town or major highway intersection. I can do this is only a few seconds. Usually, when I call in a report, I'll say, "I'm on Highway xxx, about xxx north of This City. I've got a tornado about xxx miles to my north, so I'll say it's xxx miles north of This City."

You can provide more training to your spotters on how to report the feature's location, but it's going to be on them in the end. Most of it is an experience factor. Trying to glean detailed information from reports during the heat of the moment can be like pulling teeth. Trying to get someone to relate a report of marble-sized hail to the size of a coin can be rough...lol.

 

[Tim Shriver]

I like the GPS too along with indicating what direction they see the aloft event.
I have found that if folks try to guess a distance from them they are usually way off.

Most of the issues came from non-member spotters/chasers or public/LEO reports. But even then the best spotter can get turned around from time to time.

I like the cross street also. If they could combine the LAT/LONG or NWS Reference points (KMKX uses these) along with the nearest cross streets that would help some.

Short of driving right up to the tornado and shooting off a flare I can't think of much
more one could do to "mark the spot".

We are actually looking into rigging a RC model plane with a camera so that
we can see further in these darn WI corn fields. Sometimes you can not see the
damage path because it is small and way out in the middle of a corn field.
Has anyone done this before? How did it work?

Tim

 

[Karen St John]

We are actually looking into rigging a RC model plane with a camera so that we can see further in these darn WI corn fields. Sometimes you can not see the damage path because it is small and way out in the middle of a corn field.

Has anyone done this before? How did it work?

Tim

I like this idea. Michigan is pretty heavily wooded between farms, and a streaming camera from an RC aircraft (so you could guide it around from the ground, of course) could be useful here, too, for damage surveys.

I've been doing those this summer, just for the purpose of teaching myself, since I have had a number of EFO types in my area. In fact almost all of them have been within 5 miles of my home, so the damage paths have been easy to find.

 

[Keith Wilson]

People seem to be more prone to underestimate the distance to an event. Excitement/adrenaline can play a large role in misjudging the distance, but terrain and unfamiliarity with the area are probably the more frequent culprits. Any of us would be able to provide a more accurate location if the event being observed is in our home county where we know the roads and landmarks.
If I am 1000 miles from my heavily wooded home turf and trying to estimate the distance of a tornado across miles of rolling hills and cornfields on the Plains, I am probably going to be way off with my estimate since even my estimate of how large the tornado is may be way off too.

 

[J Tyler]

I combine both GR3 and Spotter Network, and also have MS streets and trips all tied into a roof top mounted GPS antenna.

Spotter Network's Windows client is sweet because it will show you, "You are located 3.2 miles north of Lewisville in Denton county". When I report, I try to give TWO location identifiers, and one of those is always what Spotter Network gives. To get my other one, I'll either use a intersection, Interstate mile marker, or drop a "marker" on GR3 (or use the distance measuring tool on MS Streets and Trips) on a town that is exactly due east/west/north/south of me and then put the pointer directly on ME to see how far I am from that town. I feel you have a better chance of finding me if I say "I am 21.3 NM due South of Ada Oklahoma" than if I say "I am 13.8 NM South Southwest of Stonewall". People know what exactly due SOUTH is, but South Southwest is not exact. Anyway, between what Spotter Network says, and what I figure on my own, I hope to give a pretty clear picture of where "I" am located. Of course, if Net Control or the NWS office uses Spotter Network, they can see my dot on the screen too.

For giving location of the event if it is aloft, I'm like most people here in that I get really close. When I'm driving behind a tornado, and can visualize 3 football fields on the ground between me and the base, I call it in as "300 yards due East of my current position". You can also use the radar shot if it is farther away to assist you in guessing distance. Drop a marker on the storm, and them measure that way. Once a storm gets more than 5-6 miles away from me, I no longer have faith in my ability to be accurate on the distance. This is where experience would pay off.

I do look forward to seeing the replies in this thread, to see what "tricks" I can pick up from others out there.

 

[Rick Smith]

For spotters working from a fixed location, we encourage them to identify some landmarks - water tower, transmission lines, silos, etc - that are visible from their designated spot and find out how far away they are. It's not perfect but might help get the guesses a little more in the ball park.

Rick

 

[Greg Stumpf]

Reporting azimuth (degrees) to the tornado is vitally important. That way, one could triangulate the location of the tornado from other reports or with radar data. It is very challenging to be accurate in reporting distance to the tornado - especially in this day and age of "I'm 100 feet from it!".

 

[Lanny Dean]

...When you have an "aloft event" like a tornado, wall cloud, funnel do
you try to guess the distance the event is from you or just give the direction
you are looking?Tim

Not sure if I understand an "aloft event"??? What is that exactly?
If it is aloft, it is not a tornado.
As far as reporting, when I was still spotting years ago, I would give the exact direction I was looking at and the 3 W's...What was I seeing? Where was I looking and What time did I see it? This includes exacts as well as guessing.

...I suspect that many tornadoes still go unverified because we can not find the damage indicators due to locations reported being off.
Granted miles and miles of 10 foot tall corn does make it hard.
Tim

Then IMO you need to train "your" spotters better period. Of course you will always have some issues with reports, multiple reports and those kinds of issues but c'mon....Skywarn is a volunteer program and as such you will have to deal with many many different kinds of people, some of which may have bad attitudes or simply not good at reporting/spotting. These are the ones you will need to weed out. If you can't weed them out, the other solution is to simply stop taking their reports. Pretty simple if you ask me.
Mr. Jim Sellars is one of the best Skywarn cord. that I have had the pleasure of dealing with....might be a good idea to chat with him sometime as I am sure he would be willing to give some ideas and pointers. He is a member here.

 

[Tim Shriver]

'Not sure if I understand an "aloft event"??? What is that exactly?'

A tornado is included in what Sulcom calls Aloft Events.
These are events that extend into the sky (aloft) and usually
take place a distance from the spotter.

Hail, rain, wind is usually reported at the location the spotter is at. Tornadoes, wall clouds and funnel clouds are usually, but not always, viewed from a distance.
So Sulcom asked we do not judge the distance from the spotter to the aloft
event as many times this guess is wrong. The spotter location and the direction
the aloft event is from them is what the local WFO wants. SulCom works
with the local WFO and the local Ham groups.

"Then IMO you need to train "your" spotters better period."

I love the way folks jump to the "period" remarks.

We train each and every month. Meetings held 11 months a year.
We practice storm reports every Wednesday night during our ham and Business band nets. So I would say that we do train them well.

If you think all spotters, when trained, will do everything correctly, every time
your in for a shock. People make mistakes, but we work to reduce this.

Most are well trained within MidWest SSTRC, but we also take reports
from non-MidWest SSTRC members as well (other hams). Thus some of these reports tend to be off.

With that said, even a well trained spotter can mess up the distance and locations
of what they wittiness. from time to time.


Tim

 

[Tim Shriver]

For spotters working from a fixed location, we encourage them to identify some landmarks - water tower, transmission lines, silos, etc - that are visible from their designated spot and find out how far away they are. It's not perfect but might help get the guesses a little more in the ball park.

Rick

Very good point. This works well for static spotters and can be used for
mobile spotter if they know the area they are in well.

Many of our members go out and map out their areas for mobile spotting.
Picking good visibility spots with good escape routes. They check the distance
from these spots to recognizable land features. This works well.

GPS has also helped with this as well, but not used widely, yet.

We also must use preset NWS reference points and can not use just
any landmark or town.
These preset NWS reference points are chosen by our local WFO and they
have them overlaid on their radar. Works well for them.

Tim

 

[rdale]

So Sulcom asked we do not judge the distance from the spotter to the aloft event as many times this guess is wrong. The spotter location and the direction the aloft event is from them is what the local WFO wants.

I'd check with the NWS again as I think something was just missed in translation... A report of direction without estimated distance can cause quite a bit of confusion. That might be an area to work on training, but to just say "Don't estimate a distance" cannot be what the office told you.

 

[Lanny Dean]

If you think all spotters, when trained, will do everything correctly, every time
your in for a shock. People make mistakes...Tim

Then knowing that, why start the thread? I am assuming just to find out what else you might be able to do to increase the accuracy of said reports? And as far as the "event aloft"....I am still very confused about this. Why would you want or even accept a report without estimated distance? In the 50 or so spotter training classes I attended over the last 20 years I have never been informed not to give this information. In fact, I do not know of a NWSFO in the country that would accept a report of a wind event, tornado, hail, flooding or the like without this valuble information. Maybe Rdale or someone else who deals with this on a day to day basis can chim in here but this is where and why I was refering to training. I am sorry if it came across as if I were acting like an ass, I certainly did not mean it that way but what I was trying to say was that if you are having issues as bad as you say you are due to estimating distances and not being able to accept those reports then you and or your people do need additional training period IMHO.

As I stated in the rest of my post, spotters will and do make mistakes. It just happens. I was spotting long before I started chasing. In fact, spotting was another way into the chasing arena for me so I fully understand the needs, wants, expectations and goals for a spotter and from a spotter. However as I also stated, and as I am sure you understand much more than I ever could, being a volunteer program you are going to have spotters that have issues with doing things correctly and or the way you expect them or need them to do it. It's just a fact. Those are the one's that IMO you will need to weed out. Again, I will direct you to Mr. Jim Sellers. He is the Southwest Missouri Regional Skywarn Cordinator and has been for many many years. I am sure he would be more than glad to give some ideas or helpful pointers.
I have taken part in full severe weather nets while chasing from South Dakota to Texas and by far IMO they are probably one of the best around!

Give Jim a shout...he might be able to help you or at least give some ideas that maybe you have not had a chance to think about yet.

Good luck!

 

[Tim Shriver]

I'd check with the NWS again as I think something was just missed in translation... A report of direction without estimated distance can cause quite a bit of confusion. That might be an area to work on training, but to just say "Don't estimate a distance" cannot be what the office told you.

Rdale, Trust but verify.


http://www.sulcom.info/summer_procedures/reporting_formats/reporting_formats.htm

-----
"Aloft event location (Items 1 through 3 on the Criteria page) will most likely NOT be at the same location as the observer. For aloft events, provide the location of the observer followed by the general direction of the event from the observer location."

"Ground event location (Items 4 through 13 on the Criteria page) should be at the same location as the observer."

-----

We also questioned this but now see what they do.

Rusty K. (KMKX Warning Cord. Met) has stated this many times at the spotter classes the past 4 years. I attend 3-5 of these per season and present our spotter group. "If you not sure, don't report it" You will find this in the Spotter PPT on their website. He clearly says not to judge the distance for aloft events.
It is also clear from the 4 years of "Relay Training" that SulCom does for KMKX

Now he does go on to say, if a tornado hits your barn and you know exactly how
far said barn is from you, then you can say the distance is measured.

But for the ham side of things, it is not allowed in the initial report.

The TLCS protocols listed below that hams are required to use.
This protocol is also being presented to the general public the past two years,
but in a more general and non-specific manner.


Take some folks out to an area they have never been before. Measure out
two or three land marks. One .5 miles away, the next 1 mile and the next 2 miles.

You will find they will get two out of the three wrong when guessing distance from where they are to the landmark. Not knowing the size of the weather feature
or knowing the surroundings before hand, folks will get it wrong more then right.

Now, with that said, the spotter will typically note how far the event is from them
for later use. But in the initial report submitted to the WFO they do ask not to
judge the distance, but to just give the direction from them.

The Met then looks where the spotter is, as per the KMKX reference points and
then looks at the cell that is present in the direction the spotter indicated.

The WFO or the folks working the "net" for the WFO can ask followup questions if they wish. But the initial radio reports do not contain this and are not allowed to contain this.

Also the protocol we use, per KMKX/SulCom is TLCS. Time, Location, Condition, Source.

http://www.sulcom.info/summer_procedures/reporting_formats/reporting_formats.htm

Each of these has a sub-set of weather event names. We are not allowed to vary from this protocol.

Example of a TOR Report submitted via radio (ham):

I am the "Relay" for this event using my call sign of WX9TRS. I then
take the tac call sign of 375 relay or 75 relay upon checking in with WX9MKX.
These "tactical call signs" are legal per the FCC and represent the repeater
approved by SulCom for taking ham reports and relaying them directly to the NWS via a separate 2 meter repeater system. SulCom is based at the WFO.

Report flow:
Spotter>Relay>SulCom at WFO

(WX9TRS) WX9MKX, 375 Relay, tornado
(WX9MKX) Go 375 relay
(WX9TRS) 3:45pm, 2.5 miles West South West of DeForest, Dane county. Tornado to their North West, MidWest 101
(WX9MKX) Copy 375 relay WX9MKX
(WX9TRS)WX9TRS


The MidWest Id number or ham call sign at the end of the report line above is the source of the report (MidWest 101).

Then the WFO/SulCom can ask followup questions if needed. But they are very
clear about what to say and when.

Tim

 

[Tim Shriver]

"Then knowing that, why start the thread? I am assuming just to find out what else you might be able to do to increase the accuracy of said reports?"

I don't think I said this is the best and more accurate system of reporting. I stated
that this is what we do as required of us (ham), what I have seen in the past years of spotter classes presented by KMKX and that we do understand why they do it.

So I am always looking for a better way. Thus the thread.

I like the questions.

The point of the ham TLCS protocol is
to get the "tornado" to the Mets desk ASAP. They can tell on the radar
what cell is causing the weather event. If not, they can have someone do a followup
with the spotter via radio.
This also cuts down on "air time" from stations all reporting the same event
and frees up air time for new severe weather events.

The local county EMMs, also know this protocol and have many times sounded the
sirens based on these reports before the WFO issues the warning. This cuts down
on response time even more. They also have the NWS Reference points from KMKX
and radar overlays. (place files)

One thing of note. Only the weather events listed as "severe" can be relayed
via the 2 meter radio "backbone" to the WFO. Non-Severe items are eSpottered in.

I am also asking this from the Damage Assessment Team view point. I find that
most of the reports are off to some degree in location. This includes your run of the mill spotter, the seasoned chaser passing through the area to college met students. In WI or outside.

I do think the way that KMKX uses the preset reference points, the compass points,
and the protocols does seem to work well for them. But it takes training and cooperation between many groups to make it work well.
It also places more of a burden on the spotter. I do still have a concern about that, but so far so good.


Tim