Large Hail avoidance

[DRMabe]

Around here in NC, hail can get up to golf ball size. At least thats the biggest I can ever remember around here. The majority of it is pea-dime size though, and it's always in the heavy precip. I don't mind hail, in fact I have purposely gotten into it several times in the past, including some quarter size hail a few weeks ago. However, I have never been in anything larger than golf ball. I would like to keep my windows, I want to avoid it unless I have a shelter to ride it out in to get some good video of it. I know the basic on identifying hail on radar (purple). Also a whitish column would be a hail shaft. So I have a few questions for you guys that know alot about the storms in the midwest. I'm heading out there in about 10 days. Not worried about body damage really, but do not want to lose windows.

From what I understand, large hail is always in the updraft? Correct?

Can a storm "sling" large hail out to the sizes like it can smaller stuff, or does the big heavy stuff usually just fall straight down?

I would like to get somewhat close to a tornado, maybe a mile away. If I'm to the south of the storm, would there be any chance of large hail in that area aside from another storm coming up on me and dropping it?

Whats the best way to stay out of the big stuff aside from not chasing at all? lol I know it's a risk, and I'm prepared to take it. However even if it means breaking off or falling back to keep my windows, thats what I'll do.

 

[Skip Talbot]

From what I understand, large hail is always in the updraft? Correct?

No, there will be large hail in the forward flank core, and rear flank core of the storm in addition to underneath the updraft base.

Can a storm "sling" large hail out to the sizes like it can smaller stuff, or does the big heavy stuff usually just fall straight down?

The winds in a storm do influence the trajectory of hail. I envision people thinking storms or tornadoes are like baseball pitchers and will throw hailstones incredible horizontal distances. I'm not sure its as dramatic as people imagine, but there is a significant horizontal component to the trajectory if the winds are strong enough, and you can get hail away from the updraft base and cores as a result.

I would like to get somewhat close to a tornado, maybe a mile away. If I'm to the south of the storm, would there be any chance of large hail in that area aside from another storm coming up on me and dropping it?

If you're still under the base of the storm, yes, there is still a risk for large hail. Often there will be encroaching storms from the south that will also dump some hail on you. But yes, being 1 mile south of the tornado generally poses less of a hail threat than being 1 mile north of the tornado (on a conventionally orientated, east moving supercell), unless you're still under the rain free base of rear flanking downdraft.

Whats the best way to stay out of the big stuff aside from not chasing at all? lol I know it's a risk, and I'm prepared to take it. However even if it means breaking off or falling back to keep my windows, thats what I'll do.

Don't drive in or under the storm. Its as simple as that. "But-but, how I'm going to have to sometimes to chase!" Yes, if you're not willing to gamble with the damage, chasing conservatively in this manner may very well end your chase, but is the only sure way to avoid hail. Even then, you might be unable to escape a nearby storm even if you avoid the one you're chasing.

 

[Rob H]

For hail outside of the core, on small storms you may not have to worry about it as much, but the big storms will find a way to throw hail at you. We were ~2 miles away from the Wakita tornado on the back side of it, with no precipitation. 5" hail was being flung at us at maybe a 35deg angle from the ground:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBHZMolQ0c4#t=03m10s
(linked to specific time so you don't have to skip through it)

Even still, some times you can get rogue hail stone that fall far away from where you would expect

Heh, we had a "rogue" stone smack into the top of the car nearly 10 minutes after the Mapleton tornado had gone through and we were in town clearing a tree in the road. Not really a danger to windshields when there's only one, but it's funny how far some of these stones can travel.

 

[Jeff Snyder]

Whats the best way to stay out of the big stuff aside from not chasing at all? lol I know it's a risk, and I'm prepared to take it. However even if it means breaking off or falling back to keep my windows, thats what I'll do.

Skip covered this well. I will just say that you should really, really, really try to avoid the area under the edge of the updraft N and W of the meso. So, suppose you are looking at a barber-pole updraft, and you have a few road options available -- you could jump on a road just north of the mesocyclone, wait until the meso passes and try to follow it from the west, or drive south a bit (giving up a view) and jump on a road that may cost a few more miles. In general, the former two choices would be suboptimal if your goal is to stay out of large hail. In my experience, the largest hail *tends* to fall right at the edge of the updraft, typically without rain, and typically in very low number concentrations. This makes sense, though, since, if you imagine the edge of an updraft, the only things that may be able to fall to the surface in an environment of weak-moderate upward vertical motion are going to be things that are heavy; the smaller, lighter items (rain, small hail, etc.) will be lofted by that updraft, so you'll be left with nothing but only the largest of the hailstones, those that are heavy enough to fall to the earth against the background upward motion.

This works similar if you are punching the core from the north. You'll probably experience very heavy, "blinding" rain and perhaps some small- or medium-sized hail (<2"). Then, you emerge from the heavy rain, getting a nice view of the meso to your south or southwest -- "whew, that core wasn't very bad", you think to yourself. From the corner of your eye, you see a white object fall from the sky. Then another, and another. WHAM! Now, you wish you had some sort of hail protection for your windows as ice-bombs crash to the earth. You just happen to drive yourself right under the very north edge of the updraft, a common area for very large hail. When I'm in such situation, it usually puts my mind at ease actually to be in the heavy rain, since it's the time when I emerge out of the heavy rain that I often worry the most about getting destroyed by softball-sized hailstones.

Edit: As others have noted, there certainly can be severe-sized hail mixed in with very heavy rain. The vehicle-destroying uber-hail, however, I've almost always found removed from the heavy rain, usually left to fall by itself on the SW/W/NW/N edge of the updraft. Then again, I try to minimize my time in cores, so...

 

[Dean Baron]

Don't drive through the core (unless you have to) and stay a decent distance away from the base (~5 miles or so should do most times). I have been able to avoid hail pretty well, mostly because I dont want to have to pay for a new windshield or window. Even still, some times you can get rogue hail stone that fall far away from where you would expect (this happened to me on 6/25/2010, never actually saw them, but they sounded big when they hit my car).

 

[DRMabe]

I appreciate the responses! Learn something new everyday. Golf balls I can handle, even a cracked windshield is fine as I have a very small chip in it now. Just don't want the thing blowing in on me and losing cameras and laptop due to rain coming in. Equipment is my main concern.....followed by expense of replacing windows. I don't care about getting wet myself as I work outside. My vehicle also has rubber flooring and water resistant seats, so it'll be fine. Side windows are probably more of a concern since tempered glass will "blow out" into tiny pieces everywhere. My vehicle's side and rear windows are mostly vertical, and the windshield doesn't have a long slope. So I guess if I get hit my a few I could luck out and not lose windows. Like you said Skip, no way to chase without getting under the storm to some degree. Gotta pay to play I guess. As a backup, I'll have a roll of clear plastic, tape, and tashbags for equipment if the worse case happens.

 

[Jason Foster]

Just to run a quick "assumption scenario"

Let's assume a large hailstone is being influence heavily by winds in the first 10,000 feet of decent. Let's start at 40,000 feet. Let's say for every 20' of decent the stone moves 5' horizontally, that would equal 2500' horizontal movement. Now let's just assume that for the remaining 30,000 feet the stone only moves 3' for every 20' of decent. That would equal another 4,500' horizontal movement. Combine the two...that's 7,000 FEET of horizontal movement. These are not steep angles either. Of course reality would have the stone falling wouldn't be so easy to model. Rotation being a big factor.

It's just a matter of scale. Major storms have that on their side.

Oh...for reference...1 mile = 5,280'

Just remember too....you are storm chasing...there are risks, but asking questions is good, and avoiding hail is good!

 

[Donovan Gruner]

Fun fact: We encountered baseballs coming at us at around a 45 degree angle in the RFD of the Tushka tornado...

 

[Bart_Comstock]

Here is a good way to avoid large hail, don't follow me.

 

[Jason Foster]

Here is a good way to avoid large hail, don't follow me.

Why? Do you pick up hail stones and throw them at people ;-) I kinda felt like throwing some at Ellinwood yesterday (for fun). I do wish someone's hail guard chase vehicle (any one's...there's a few) was around...to "test". I miss my baseball playing days.

 

[Jordan Hartley]

I made my very first core punch last week and it was a horrible experience. Apart from actually wanting the car to get beat to crap I encountered a few major risk factors that I hadnt considered. I core punched from the south. The sun had set. Went under the mesocyclone in order to get the largest hail. As the FFD had already past my last hope was to take a direct hit from the RFD. With 2" of ice covering the ground and road and a warm moist RFD blasting from the east it caused the worst fog ive ever been in. So as I crept along at 5 mph getting pounded by baseball size hail I couldnt see the road. It got so bad I ended up in a ditch. Luckily despite already driving 200 miles into OK and back into Kansas, I got stuck 2 miles away from the parents farm house and was out in 10 minutes Would have never done this same thing had it not been in a county that I know like the back of my hand. Ended the chase there and drove back to Wichita counting my blessing and promising myself I would never under any circumstances try to core punch again if I didnt have to.

Night time aproaching, 2" of ice on the ground, dark green sky with the worst fog ever, and baseballs raining like bombs... ultimate core punch ever!

 

[jshields]

one thing i wouldn't rely on is hail being in just the "purple" area on the radar. not sure what kindof radar program you use, but hail definitely can fall outside of the purple area!

Around here in NC, hail can get up to golf ball size. At least thats the biggest I can ever remember around here. The majority of it is pea-dime size though, and it's always in the heavy precip. I don't mind hail, in fact I have purposely gotten into it several times in the past, including some quarter size hail a few weeks ago. However, I have never been in anything larger than golf ball. I would like to keep my windows, I want to avoid it unless I have a shelter to ride it out in to get some good video of it. I know the basic on identifying hail on radar (purple). Also a whitish column would be a hail shaft. So I have a few questions for you guys that know alot about the storms in the midwest. I'm heading out there in about 10 days. Not worried about body damage really, but do not want to lose windows.

From what I understand, large hail is always in the updraft? Correct?

Can a storm "sling" large hail out to the sizes like it can smaller stuff, or does the big heavy stuff usually just fall straight down?

I would like to get somewhat close to a tornado, maybe a mile away. If I'm to the south of the storm, would there be any chance of large hail in that area aside from another storm coming up on me and dropping it?

Whats the best way to stay out of the big stuff aside from not chasing at all? lol I know it's a risk, and I'm prepared to take it. However even if it means breaking off or falling back to keep my windows, thats what I'll do.

 

[Tony Gilbert]

Hi,
I know this thread is a bit ancient but saves starting a new thread with the same title!

Some very interesting readings here and fully agree with most of the comments and advice. Pretty much written off (for insurance purposes) two cars with hail since 2000 when I first started chasing in the US. The most recent damage was in 2011 with smaller (say 1") almost horizontal hail on strong surface winds. The car looked like hammered steel, almost pickled like!
This aside, regarding big hail avoidance; Its not as easy as some UK to USA chasers tend to argue! A good example was 29th May 2001 just north of the Whitedeer tornado cell. We got hammered with big hail falling off the northern sector of the anvil. In fact we were several miles north at the time (not the best of positions). I concluded here that the hail was maybe being lifted into the overshooting top and then blown forwards several miles on the jet stream. In short, there was no storm above us just elevated anvil scud at high altitude.

I avoid big hail at every opportunity, but big hail can find you even with many years experience. If I lived in the USA I would build me a nice cage to drive in but us Brits are stuck with rental cars and don't have this choice.
PS. I prefer to sit up close and personal just to the east of the updraft so risking the odd meeting with big hail as these storm occlude is pretty much unavoidable!
Still waiting for someone to invent me a portable mag-mounted hail guard which I can pull out of a case and unfold?

 

[Paul Knightley]

You should invent that, Tony! You could go on Dragons' Den!

In all seriousness I agree with Tony - when you're in a rental car you really want to stay out of it - although the insurance covers it, it can be (as I've heard!) quite an experience when you take the car back.