Lack of CMV ID Suggestive of Illegitimate Tour Operators

[Robert Edmonds]

This year I noticed that many (large and well known) storm chasing tour operators were using passenger vehicles that could seat more than 8 passengers (i.e. the # of restraints including the driver). These vehicles are considered commercial motor vehicles (CMVs). Since all storm chasing tours (that I know) are crossing state lines, this means these tours are interstate tour operators of CMVs.

This text is copied from the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA), further defining a commercial motor vehicle:

Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle:

Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

Note even if you remove a seat, if the vehicle could originally seat > 8 ppl, it is still considered a CMV.

The FMCSA requires interstate passenger carriers to provide proper identification of their vehicles. I have noted that the tours that operate these CMVs do not have the proper ID on their vehicles. Below is an example of an interstate passenger carrier with appropriate ID (left), and a vehicle operated by a (well known) storm chasing tour company (right) that has no identification on their vehicle (I counted 11 restraints).

This lack of simple identification, which is required by the FMCSA, suggests to me that some tours are not operating legally (and this simple identification also is usually required by states if the operators are not using commercial motor vehicles for-hire). If this is the case, we should expect more from these tour operators who are largely representing the storm chasing community. This suspicion is even further amplified by noticing only two tours even appear when conducting a USDOT search.

So, I believe that if you have evidence that a tour is not operating lawfully (for example not even having appropriate operating authority, or just lacking identification), I would suggest reporting the business to the appropriate transportation authorities.


For complaints about interstate tour operators (this usually applies to operators of vehicles with seating capacities > 8 ppl, i.e. total # of restraints) you should file a complaint by mail to the state usdot division office for where the company is based.
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/contact/offices/displayfieldroster.aspx

File a complaint to the link above if you have (1) seen a tour operating a van with no identification or no USDOT or MC # AND (2) that van can carry more than 8 ppl (i.e. the # of restraints).


For complaints about tour operators (usually with seating capacities <= 8 ppl) you should file a complaint with your appropriate state agencies. For example in NM, I would be reporting those to the NM Public Regulation Commission.


Why do I bring this up now? For those operators that operate illegally, when you have an accident (and one of you eventually will) it will make the rest of the storm chasing tour industry look bad. For an example, look at the recent crack down on the tour bus industry in NY (and that was with tour operators that largely have authority to operate). Second, it also produces a pricing advantage against those who operate legally (the commercial for-hire insurance is several thousand per year, only just part of what you need to have to operate legally). Third, (like it or not) the regulations are in place to ensure to the public that you are operating maintained vehicles with safe drivers, and with the appropriate amount of financial responsibility (i.e. insurance). I’m sure this post will cause me some flack, and I’m sure it looks like this is something done out of personal gain, however it is time as a community we demand that tour operators operate legally. Therefore, I urge others to direct complaints to the appropriate authorities as well. Note, I like and have met many of the tour operators before, I hope that this post will motivate these tours to correct these issues.


P.S. If you feel I am incorrect about my assessment that some tours are operating illegitimately, I would be happy to be informed why I am incorrect. Also, to the detractors of this post, I feel this thread is legitimate as any other copyright infringement post.

 

[Andy Jackson]

I see where you are coming from with the pricing advantages as licensed or non-licensed that does seem to be "unfair". I do have a question for you: if you did register your tour vehicle (assuming you have met the criteria) what does the gov actually do to ensure a safer tour for the people? Do they perform inspections, have required maintenance etc...

 

[Robert Edmonds]

Yes, here are the regulations for small passenger vehicles:
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/bus/company/smallvanbackinfo.htm

 

[Winston Wells]

I assume that most tour operators rent the vans that they use each chase season from other companies. If this is the case, wouldn't compliance with these regulations ultimately be the responsibility of the companies that own the vans, as opposed to the tour operators themselves?

 

[Jason Foster]

I think rentals are a part of this. But I also know that at least one tour group goes out of it's way to be legit...but can't say I remember any markings on their vehicle. I would car more about the fact that they ARE LEGIT by asking and showing me documents, not silly stickers on the outside.

It's like boats....many have all these silly ID stickers on the outside, but you can also get some kind of federal registration and avoid the ugliness. My buddy went that route. I'm sure it's not the same here, but still....I'd think there are all kinds of factors. Additionally, we all know many groups operate illegally, but there is a bit of immoral/illegal activity surrounding chasing these days....everyone trying to make a buck. That parallels other extreme sports and outdoor type businesses. Hell...there are tons of Taxi's in cities that are not legit either.

 

[Robert Edmonds]

I assume that most tour operators rent the vans that they use each chase season from other companies. If this is the case, wouldn't compliance with these regulations ultimately be the responsibility of the companies that own the vans, as opposed to the tour operators themselves?

With the vehicle in the photo above, some modifications to it suggested to me that it was not rented (along with others CMVs used for tours that I came across this year). As for renting (which I doubt the tour would be truthful to the renter), I am uncertain of who would be responsible for compliance, it would not however negate some party to maintain medical records, driver records, etc. I simply bring up the 'silly' markings (which are required no matter what on CMVs being used for-hire) , because it is the easiest way to identify that a tour is not being compliant with transportation regulations, that are in place for customer SAFETY.

Also I have started this discussion on CF, for those with more questions.
http://www.chasersforum.com/showthread.php?822-Lack-of-CMV-ID-Suggestive-of-Illegitimate-Tour-Operators

 

[joel ewing]

Throughout the many years that I've been chasing, I have witnessed that there will occasionally be people who seem to think that there is actually some kind of entity as a "chasing community", and will attempt to assign various codes of behavior or standards to this so-called "community". Speaking as honestly as I can...I have come to the conclusion that there are two types of chasers: One type will interact with people and say "I'm Joe Blow, and yes, one of my hobbies is that I enjoy chasing storms. The other type: Hi....I'm Joe Blow STORMCHASER!! The difference between the two is that one of the two wears his stormchasing hobby on his sleeve front and center for all to see. It is this type that wishes to feel part of a larger "community", and envisions lofty rules and moral goals for all the other "clubmembers" to strive to.
In reality, there IS NO chasing community. I belive that if a person has chased long enough, and not just around their local area but through many many states and tornadic events during several seasons, you'll find that this is a tough, tough game where every man or woman is pretty much out for themselves. Certainly, there are friendships and some small cliques, but trust me....there is a great deal of back-biting and selfishness "out there" too. Why do you think the first thing you read when you log into these S.T. forums are the hard-and-fast rules of behavior?
I would like to suggest Mr Edmonds, and with all due respect....that YOU...begin "dropping the dime" on the tour operators that you feel don't meet your standards....don't try to recruit others within Stormtrack to do the dirty work for you. Please do report back on your efforts, as I'd be most interested in monitoring your progress.

 

[Ryan McGinnis]

It looks like display of the number is mandatory:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/truck/vehicle/marking.htm

So if no number is displayed, then there is non-compliance of some sort going on. Penalties are here under (b):

http://law.justia.com/codes/us/title49/49usc521.html

Though, my suggestion to anyone running a tour would be to run all this by an attorney who can probably do a better job of making sure you are in compliance than an interwebs forum.

 

[Robert Edmonds]

It looks like display of the number is mandatory:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/truck/vehicle/marking.htm

So if no number is displayed, then there is non-compliance of some sort going on. Penalties are here under (b):

http://law.justia.com/codes/us/title49/49usc521.html

Though, my suggestion to anyone running a tour would be to run all this by an attorney who can probably do a better job of making sure you are in compliance than an interwebs forum.

Someone who helped me understand the transportation regulations were Complete Compliance Services, LLC out of Albuquerque, NM. I recommend them to anyone who is trying to figure them out.

 

[Steve Miller]

So are you thinking about starting a competing tour company and made a note of this or are you just bored and want to see if you can screw with other people's livelihood? I'm not a tour operator so I don't care but I think it's interesting enough to note here that you point this out and also exactly who to call should someone have a concern.

This said, where people can truly get in trouble is when they are using their personal vehicles and assuming their non-commercial insurance will cover them. Not only should a general liability policy be in place, a personal umbrella extending to commercial rights should be as well. Customer waivers mean nothing.

So anyway, continue the headhunt.

 

[Robert Edmonds]

So are you thinking about starting a competing tour company and made a note of this or are you just bored and want to see if you can screw with other people's livelihood? I'm not a tour operator so I don't care but I think it's interesting enough to note here that you point this out and also exactly who to call should someone have a concern.

This said, where people can truly get in trouble is when they are using their personal vehicles and assuming their non-commercial insurance will cover them. Not only should a general liability policy be in place, a personal umbrella extending to commercial rights should be as well. Customer waivers mean nothing.

So anyway, continue the headhunt.

I have not named tours, if you feel that tours should remain compliant to transportation laws, and you have evidence suggesting otherwise, I have simply provided you the means to report it. No different than any other copyright violation thread, except those people usually name the offenders. I see no fault reminding some tours that they may be breaking the law (I don't know maybe they're stickers fell off), and that you should fix these errors (especially if your livelihood depends on it). These operators hurt those trying to provide tours legally, they might be skimping on their required maintenance, using drivers with bad records without knowing (how would you know if you never asked for the required records), using drivers with out medical examinations, they may have had accidents go unreported, and they may not be maintaining the required amount of insurance. That is the purpose of these regulations, if you find a fault with them, ask your government to change them.

 

[Andy Jackson]

The easy answer to avoid this is probably what the companies are doing anyway and that is having less than the gov's requirement per van. The tour companies I have seen out there seem to have their stuff together.

 

[Andrew Burnett]

you can bet the first time a customer is killed doing this. The industry will become heavily regulated. If not federally, at least in some states.

 

[joel ewing]

After reading Mr. Edmond's initial post and writing my response, I clicked on Mr. Edmond's personal profile. From the profile, I was directed to his website. It appears that Mr. Edmonds is also in the "Tornado Tours" business, but instead of mimicking the traditional tour companies that provide the transportation for their clients, his angle is to be hired on as the "tourguide"....and simply "rides along" in the client's own vehicle. Mr. Edmonds provides all the necessary tornado tracking equipment, etc. Certainly a noble endeavor, and he's certainly not the first person to offer this method of chasing for profit. Interestingly....he clearly boasts a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT SUCCESS RATE of finding a tornado or tornadoes each time he goes out on a tour with his clients. I would imagine your phone should be ringing off the hook....even in this difficult economy.
Again, with all due respect Mr. Edmonds, I implore you to not attempt to recruit Stormtrack readers to run to the proper authorities and "drop the dime" on your competitors. You should do your own dirty work yourself.

 

[Robert Edmonds]

Interestingly....he clearly boasts a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT SUCCESS RATE of finding a tornado or tornadoes each time he goes out on a tour with his clients. I would imagine your phone should be ringing off the hook....even in this difficult economy.

That's because all of my customers have seen tornadoes 2 years running. All without breaking any for-hire passenger regulations. I have "dropped the dime", and I do know from personal experience they're pricing advantage hurts those who want to operate legally. I have also been in the process of starting my own group tours (which have yet to run and do not operate CMVs), and have started the state registration, including medical examinations, driver record evaluations, vehicle inspections, and more. I am reminded that when the government asks me to swear (every year) that I have a maintained vehicle, that if I lie, I am breaking the law and can face penalties.