Is all-clear signal after tornado not feasible?

[Jason Harris]

Partly spurred to ask this question by some of the discussion about sirens in the basement thread and also recalling how students at MSU complained last year about being stuck in the basement for hours based on the concerns of residential hall officials and the uncertainty about how long to wait after a series of sirens through the evening. I think it was the night when Williamston, MI got hit.

So, why not have an all-clear signal? Maybe something like a friendly bell sound (Just comes to mind--not a real proposal). Or anything.

If someone's power is out from the storm, they can't necessarily turn on the TV and check for updates. Ok, then there's the weather radio. I've had terrible reception with my weather radio both where I lived in East Lansing and now in Melbourne. It's fine on the road in some locations, and maybe it's electrical interference. . . hard to say, but I'm sure there must be other residents who even if they have NOAA radios, they won't be able to hear them well enough, or have them programmed correctly, or have fresh batteries, etc. etc.

Yes, there are the crank-radios too, but again, if the aim is to keep the maximum number of people informed and safe, why not have an "all clear" signal. That way, if the tornado is 20 miles away or 1/2 mile away, people won't have reason to let down their guard so quickly. And then if there's another tornado siren after the "all clear" signal, same pattern can apply.

One woman I knew during one of the tornado siren alerts laughed about how she just went to her car and drove through buckets of rain, and how she never pays attention to the sirens. There will always be those people.

And then here in FL, there are no sirens at all.
--
Florida
is another hot spot for tornadoes that many people may not realize, and yet, not a single town in Florida has a tornado siren. Sounding a tornado siren in the middle of a hurricane may not be feasible, but most tornadoes that occur in Florida are not associated with hurricanes or tropical storms
---
http://www.essortment.com/all/tornadossiren_rntb.htm
True for other Southern states
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/feb2008/torn-f13.shtml
[funny, I just did a random search for this info, and I didn't realize till checking back on this that this one was a "socialist" publication, well somebody else can supply better sources for exact facts/figures etc.. Just wanted to get the discussion going.]
or at least parts of Southern states--other states as well, like WI in spots:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/29581894.html





Seems like every community should have sirens if possible--after all, when the aliens land. . .

 

[Chris Nuttall]

There's already confusion between the different sounds for tornadoes and flash floods. An all-clear would just create more. Also, can you imagine the fallout if for some reason the all-clear was sounded by mistake while the storm was still ongoing? It's been mentioned several times, but those sirens are not really designed to be heard indoors unless you're located very close to them. Even then, they can be tough to hear inside a well-insulated building. That's why they're called an "Outdoor Warning System."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to shoot down improving the siren system. I've just held a long standing belief that sirens are relied upon too much. Unfortunately, they've been ingrained into the culture for so long, it's become a wall in public safety knowledge that's tough to crack.

Once when I was teaching a Weather Merit Badge class to some Boy Scouts (within the last few years), I asked them what they should do if they turned on the TV or heard on the radio that they were under a Tornado Warning? The response was, "Go to the shelter if we hear the sirens." I replied, "What if the sirens aren't sounding?" The silence was deafening.

 

[Danny Neal]

IMO the sounding of a siren for an all clear is pointless. It is contradictory. What happens when the initial warning is issued and they blow the sirens for 3 minutes and then 10 minutes later they blow them again (the storm hasn't hit yet) and people mistake that for the all-clear? Like has been brought up 100,000 times in the past, the tornado siren is technically meant for those who are outdoors and away from a tv or radio. Unless you live within a close proximity of the siren, who would actually hear the warning siren let alone the all clear. Especially if you are huddle in the basement in an interior room. I know at my house I live 3 blocks north and 4 blocks east of the nearest siren and I can't even hear it (and my room is upstairs next to an outside wall facing the siren). Peoples' all clear should come from the NWR/media/radio stations. I.E - "The tornado warning for XXXXX County has been cancelled/allowed to expire." IMO that is the only all clear the general public needs.

Technically each home has the capability to have its' OWN personal tornado siren.....its called a NOAA WEATHER RADIO. http://www.essortment.com/all/tornadossiren_rntb.htm this article posted above lost my interest...... They are trying to argue a tornado siren will wake you over the roar of an oncoming tornado. The only way that will happen is if you sleep with the windows open and you are within a few blocks of the tornado siren. We should be seeing less articles on the wonders of outdoor sirens and more articles on the wonder of what a NWR can do.

In THIS article http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/feb2008/torn-f13.shtml ......

Discussing the lack of warning sirens in the state, Alabama Governor Bob Riley added, “Can the state afford to put sirens all over the state of Alabama right now? We can’t without a tremendous amount of federal assistance.”

You don't need them. It may costs thousands of dollars to have a network of outdoor sirens, when that same allotment of funds could have bought the entire population of that state a cheap weather radio. You have a hell of a lot better chance, hearing a loud siren going off in your bedroom than you do one that is miles away.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/29581894.html In the final article posted it opens as:

More than 10,000 residents in southwest Milwaukee County would not hear an outdoor warning siren if a tornado swept through the region.
The 51 tornado sirens in place do not fully cover all of the county's residents, a Journal Sentinel mapping analysis found. These sirens are sometimes the only warning that a deadly funnel cloud is fast approaching.

Again..... why waste money on coverage of tornado sirens? Media needs to continue to promote and push for weather radios. Most fire departments hand out free smoke detectors to those in need, why not start handing out cheap battery powered WX radios. This whole article is crying for change for more coverage in sirens......EXCEPT for the bottom (Sirens called archaic) I wish I had read this far before using the smoke detector reference.....

"What is the best means of warning people and the most cost-effective ways of warning people? Weather radios are so cost-effective and inexpensive they should be as standard in the home as a smoke detector," Maack said.

<------Now lets continue to run with this idea like the state of Indiana has

 

[Wes Carter]

I am pointing this finger in all directions because it somewhat applies to me as well so you can say I'm being hypocritical or that I'm speaking from experience, take your pick.

What amazes me is how much of the population will spend lots of money to have their Blackberries, Ipods, Notebooks, Cable TV with movie channels, new car payments, big house payments boats, ATV's, motorcycles, Disneyland vacations, golf club memberships, etc... and expect the government or someone else to protect them from all forms of danger. Almost anyone can afford a weather radio, I've seen them as low as $19.99. Weather sirens are OK for their intentions, to warn people in town who might be outdoors or working.

But I'd hate for the government to start buying us weather radios. By the time the tax money changes hands and goes through all of the channels these same radios will ultimately cost many time more than $19.99-29.99.

I'm just thinking that government handing out weather radios won't solve a much larger problem: People are afraid of things that probably won't hurt them, but unwilling to take minor steps to minimize the associated risks. I have a neighbor who is deathly afraid of storms. She refuses to buy a weather radio because, "I'd have a heart attack if it ever went off. I'm scared to death a tornado is going to blow my house away with me in it."

What's scary is that kind of reverse logic is not at all uncommon. People are afraid of what they don't understand, and often have some kind of false sense of security in their ignorance.

 

[Danny Neal]

If a siren costs up to 20K and you install four in your area that's 80K. THIS weather radio costs 20 dollars. Lets do the math on a community of 50K or more. 80K/$20 = 4,000 weather radios in a small area. Now lets say its a BIG area like the Milwaukee article proposes. Were you may get 30 or 40 NEW sirens put in at up to 20K. That is up to 800K of spending on filling in the gaps and replacing old sirens. Following the same logic...... 800K/$20 = 40K NWR. Now tell me....what will serve more of a purpose? Taking a look at this link (a look at Baltimore, MD and Ann Arbor, MI siren coverage) would you rather spend 20K per siren OR $20 per weather radio. Again its all about cost these days. Why spend that much for one BIG siren when in effect you can spend the same amount on thousands of tiny "sirens"

Its the same as the smoke detector logic. We hand them out for free if people need them, and during fire prevention week we go door to door handing them out. Now there is obviously not a town weather station, but why not during the 4th of July parade or any town fair, have a tent set up where representatives hand out NWR? I know this is a pipe dream but it makes a lot more sense than installing outdoor sirens that people depend on indoors. Have to change the mindset.

If you are willing to spend the money anyway....why not do a little planning and choose the best possible solution?

 

[Adam Lucio]

IMO the only way an all clear siren could work was if they had a universal tone that people were well educated with. It would have to sound way different than the actual threat warning. There are too many different types of sounds for tornado sirens, I know some on hear can name every siren by its sounds but as for me I have no clue what the different tones are.

Also, what about situations where a train of sups move over the same area? Even most recently in OK those sups were all heading in the same general direction. SO youd have a tor warn...an all clear 5 minutes later...then another tor warn 5 minutes later when the next storm moves over...etc etc.

Its a good idea, but a tricky execution. I think the best thing for people to do is just have their own NOAA radio.

 

[rdale]

Its a good idea, but a tricky execution. I think the best thing for people to do is just have their own NOAA radio.

Good point. And remember that "tornado sirens" are actually "outdoor warning sirens" -- not just tornadoes. When you hear a siren, that should mean "get indoors and tune in." More proactive EMA's use them for chemical releases, dam breaks, etc. Anything that Joe Public wouldn't know about - but needs to get into shelter NOW for.

 

[twarner]

Good point. And remember that "tornado sirens" are actually "outdoor warning sirens" -- not just tornadoes. When you hear a siren, that should mean "get indoors and tune in." More proactive EMA's use them for chemical releases, dam breaks, etc. Anything that Joe Public wouldn't know about - but needs to get into shelter NOW for.

And in some small communities they are also used to alert the volunteer firemen to report to fire station.

 

[Mike Smith]

Technically each home has the capability to have its' OWN personal tornado siren.....its called a NOAA WEATHER RADIO.

This is not correct. There are many areas (such as Greensburg, Kansas, at least part of the time) where there is no NWR reception or the reception is inconsistent.

What amazes me is how much of the population will spend lots of money to have their Blackberries, Ipods, Notebooks, Cable TV with movie channels, new car payments, big house payments boats, ATV's, motorcycles, Disneyland vacations, golf club memberships, etc... and expect the government or someone else to protect them from all forms of danger. Almost anyone can afford a weather radio, I've seen them as low as $19.99. Weather sirens are OK for their intentions, to warn people in town who might be outdoors or working.

But I'd hate for the government to start buying us weather radios. By the time the tax money changes hands and goes through all of the channels these same radios will ultimately cost many time more than $19.99-29.99.

The problem with the $20 NWR is that it quickly ends up in the trash due to all of the overnight warnings that don't pertain to or of no interest to the user.

Here is what is wrong with the government handing out NWR's: $1,000 per radio!
http://stormtrack.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18502&highlight=Mike+Smith&page=4

 

[Rob Wadsworth]

I think that everybody made great points. But one has been left out. Grade school kids should be taught the siren codes. And review it every so often, as well as demystifying storm dangers, as Wesley pointed out. People often tell me that I'm crazy chasin after tornadoes; because they fear what they don't understand. Now, all of us here understand the dangers surrounding tornadoes and know how to conduct ourselves. Personally, I have more concern with lightning than tornadoes - because you can't always see it coming. If we can get kids to understand, their parents will want to know what the kids know. With all of the education that is out there, it has shown that it just hasn't gotten into the right places. Seems that the best place to start is in the schools, and can be taught in the science study time. Time well spent in areas most affected. Or so it seems...

 

[Danny Neal]

This is not correct. There are many areas (such as Greensburg, Kansas, at least part of the time) where there is no NWR reception or the reception is inconsistent.

Yes, this is true. I agree there are outliers in every plan BUT I would rather take a chance getting a broken transmission than relying on a siren miles away in the middle of a tornadic thunderstorm. ----- But instead of disagreeing about this (which I am not ) ----- Is there another alternative source of getting the warning out in the dead of night or when you can't hear the sirens? Possibly..... Cell phone alerts for your county are common and even a few services that will call your home phone when a specific warning is issued for your area. Again if you don't heed those warnings that you signed up for (whether it is the service or the NWR) then you have no one to blame. Nothing is perfect so there will be instances when a tornado hits with no warning (Rogers, MN) and there will also be cases where you do everything right and still die (Greensburg, Moore, etc). I am just a tenacious/persistent person......when something fails, I don't give up until I find a solution. I am just one person....and I probably can't make a huge difference in whether the guy in the trailor home decides to heed proper shelter, but I can guarentee that my family and friends will be knowledge-savvy and prepared in a severe weather emergency. Hopefully the word will spread on the importance of weather radios. 90% of the country is covered and probably 95% of tornado alley (I actually thought they plugged most of those transmitting holes). Again I would rather have that radio programmed for my county and maybe get a hit or miss transmission than just sitting there relying on my instincts.

 

[Mikel Shively]

After the City of Bloomfield, IA got hit several years ago, the city council voted and decided to buy a new siren. I worked in EMS there prior to my career switch to Law Enforcement. Their siren has a wail and yelp function and also a air horn sound. Upon the issuance of a tornado warning, they sound the wail. When it is cancelled or expired, they sound the all-clear air horn. It seems to work well for their community, although I know not every community has those kinds of sirens.

 

[Benjamin Rock]

Now here in Northern Ill, an air horn would be confusing for an all clear because the local park districts have implemented Lightning Warning Horns for the parks. they sound exactly like an air horn and have an amber strobe on top that flashes when the horn blows. Here in Mchenry County, they are changing all the sirens over to Fed Sig sirens of the same make to help cut down on the different siren sounds. My question though is why do they only blow a 3 minute blast for TOR-WRN? I have been asked many times if it is all clear because the siren stopped. People have come out of their safe spots and been injured because the storm hit after the 3 minute blast. Why not leave it on until the storm passes? Wouldnt stopping the siren be an All Clear signal in itself? I know sirens stop working when the power goes out or shortly after since they have battery back ups. Im just curious to hear everyones thoughts.

 

[Danny Neal]

I think it has to do with the motor in the siren getting damaged/overheating if you have it on a continuous time.

 

[Benjamin Rock]

Oh.. simple answer..thanks Danny. i didnt think about that.