How Chasing (and ST) has changed

[Mike Johnson]

I have to agree with Shane's post. People are into chasing for many reasons and unless they are doing something illegal or extremely dangerous we need to be more tolerant.

The problem I see with ST is the moderators need to apply a shorter fuse when it comes to personal attacks. I personally became too involved with defending someone who was attacked a few weeks ago. By the end of the thread, we had moved away from the original meaning and reduced ourselves to childish personal attacks. The moderators should have locked those worthless discussions right away. When readers (especially new ones) see "these threads of poison" they think this is the way ST is conducted so it goes on and on. I also think the moderators need to avoid all personal opinions when making those "locked" decisions. I've noticed an uncomfortable tendency: When those who moderator(s) favor have been attacked in the past, the moderators step in fast. But if its someone the specific moderator does not like or know - the thread continues.

If nothing changes soon, ST will lose all respect and another site will pop up promising more respectful conversation. This is the same thing that happened to WX-Chase.

Otherwise, I think ST is the best chase discussion forum ever.

Mike

 

[Tony Laubach]

With all due respect, Mike, most of the MODS and the forum admin haven't been around much in the past couple weeks as we were chasing (or other personal matters), so forgive our lack of attention to the forum during the height of chase season.

And I will also second Shane's comments... chasing is what you make of it and I guess by his definition, I could be classified as a Yahoo when I first started out as well! While ST has obviously changed, and chasing has, too, its what you make of it that really counts.

 

[Dan Robinson]

These issues aren't unique to chasing. You'll find them in any hobby, sport, business, etc.

The main thing to remember is that you can't judge the whole of a group by the actions or philosophies of a few. The problem with all of the negative publicity and bad reputations we've been seeing is due to just that.

 

[David Douglas]

my 2c worth:

1. 99% of all forums and/or lists will have silly little battles (and they ARE silly, stand back from the situation for a moment and you'll see) Some are worse than others, but it's a fact of net life. Moderators are there for a reason.

2. We should do our best to help the beginners. Yahoo or not, we all started out not knowing very much. Some percentage of them will drop out or loose interest. Some will go on and be students in Norman, Texas A&M, or some other university with a met school in a few years.

3. Things will change and that's OK. Chasing, forums, lists, people, etc.

4. Learn from others. There will always be a chaser that is better than you are and there will always be a chaser that is not as good as you are. Figure out what the better chasers are doing and learn from them.

<soapbox off>

David Douglas
Austin, TX

 

[Patrick Kerrin]

The problem in this thread is people thinking chasing has to have some type of universal meaning for everyone. This is the same mistake religion makes everyday.

Chasing is different to different people. I can't stand people posting stuff like this thread's lead-off post bitching about "people don't chase the way I want them to." This is all that post is really saying.

My advice is, if you don't like the fact other people chase with different agendas or ideologies/philosophies, get off the internet. Stop posting reports, stop reading reports.

Disappear.

While we're on the subject of "yahooing", I'd like to make an example of the gross misrepresenation of that term. In the recent book (that everyone hates) "Big Weather", I'm quoted as saying "I was definitely a yahoo." I did say that, but I'm not (by saying that) admitting I was an irrersponsible jackass who had no consideration for others. I'm saying I was young, had no experience, was over-excitable, and was out there trying to do something that I myself (even then) knew I had no idea how to do. My point in saying that was, despite the fact I had no clue how to chase (and knew it), my passion to chase superceded that lack of knowledge and I went out and did it anyway. The point of my "yahoo" statement was to show others that if you're passionate and dedicated enough, you don't need experience to get started.

I guess my definition of yahoo is different than most. IMO "yahoo" means inexperience, excitement, niavity - but certainly not disregard or disrespect to anything or anyone.

My word for that is a$$hole.

LOL Shane! I never knew you described yourself as a Yahoo!

Yes I thought your attitude was somewhat misguided when you first started but you have the passion, stuck with it, learned, and I guess you could say even mellowed in your years. I have come to enjoy most of your chase accounts as you have the same passion and dedication of many of the veterans!

I DO NOT want you or anyone else to chase the way I choose to chase - but I also don't want the kind of chasing I describe in my list (and I don't think you are like that) to define what chasing is (and maybe that is the CRUX of the issue). And chasing being defined by the "extreme" is what happens if those who have a different approach to chasing just "disappear".

BTW, a lot of the veteran chase crowd disappeared becuase discussions like this devolved into things that were far from the point of the original post and a lot of the discussions of the past got downright nasty (and ignorant) and people retreated from that. Hopefully that won't happen with this thread as I still think it is a vaid discussion if everyone keeps perspective.

I also totally disagree with your definition of Yahoo - that it is "inexperience, excitement, niavity" (and many verterans have tried to point this out over the years). That is just being a novice (and I do think people should not try and go do it alone without experience - they now have the tour group option as a way to learn from those with experience). What you call an @sshole is more of what I call a Yahoo. Semantics, eh?

AGAIN, I am really talking about a way (a movement?) that empahsises that there ARE differing approaches to chasing and some of the more sedate styles are vust as valid and maybe need more attention so that chasing is NOT defined by only the "extreme" approach. AGAIN what is emphasized provides people choices on how they may want to chase if they decide to (I would also say it influences them ) - and how chasing is portrayed determines what type of chaser mix you get in each new generation. I would like to see a fighting chance remain to also bring in those who might enjoy an "old-school" approach and appreciation but we may never get them if they don't know that is even an option. All we will get is the myopic thrill seekers - and the envelope will get pushed even harder.

 

[George Tincher]

Stormchasing will never again be like it was in the 70's and 80's. Anyone wishing for that return is in for a disappointment. It just isn't going to happen. In those days, you had what was probably 50-100 dedicated people. By the end of the 80's and start if the 90's, the number of dedicated chasers had likely grown to several hundred. Then by the mid/late 90's, after all the tv exposure in documentaries and the movie Twister, the number grew to nearly a thousand. Now, it's untelling just how many people are involved. I would guess the number of people who do chase on a frequent basis is around 1000, but there are far more of the locals who go out these days. So the number of people who may chase in a given year may be as high as 2,000 to 3,000. There's really no way of knowing.

The point is, with the growth of chasing, there is far more chances for bad stuff to happen. When you increase the number of chasers out there x10 or x20, naturally there are going to be more things get noticed. There will be more roads blocked, more cases of bad driving, more close calls and run in's of various types. That would be true of any activity really. The more people you have, the more problems you'll have. That's why a city with a population of 500,000 will have more robberies and murders per year than a town of 20,000. It's just basic math.

I think a good comparison of how growth and popularity has changed things is NASCAR. NASCAR has followed a very similar path to chasing. Even the timeframe is similar.

-NASCAR was likely at it's best in the 1970's. At the time it was still mainly a southern sport with southern fans. So it was a regional thing. Chasing was much the same. Both had a much smaller following, but a dedicated one.

-In the 70's, neither got much media coverage. So the secret was still somewhat there. Both chasing and NASCAR were great at the time. But the lack of media coverage meant that only those truly dedicated with connections to each thing really were heavily involved with it.

Then came the 1980's. The first live race to air on TV was the 1979 Daytona 500. Then during the 80's, CBS and especially ESPN started bringing NASCAR into the homes of people all around the country and world. People who had no prior exposure to it were now able to witness the greatness. Chasing saw it's first documentary in the mid 80's also, with the Nova production. That for the first time brought chasing into homes all across America.

By the late 80's and early 90's, the secret was pretty much out of the bag. NASCAR had a fanbase that was no longer made up of southerners, but people everywhere. With the increased exposure, the growth continued. With the number of chasing documentaries and the movie Twister of the 90's, the same thing happened to chasing. Prior to all of these tv specials, it probably never occurred to most people that they could go out and drive around witnessing these storms. But seeing others do so set off the lightbulb in their brain.

That leads us to the present time. Both NASCAR and chasing have undergone amazing transformations since the 70's. All races today are televised. Pretty much all tornadoes are televised too. I mean a tornado can't touch down anywhere in the Plains without video being aired on TWC or CNN. With the added growth, there has also been a big increase in the money generated by the interest it has created. Both have become much more business oriented activities for many. That's just a natural evolution. And both have more people involved today than ever before. The media that has helped build chasing into what it is also is part of the problem when it comes to certain issues that are frequently mentioned these days. The media also built NASCAR into what it is today, but many of the older fans are not sure they like what has become of it, with such things as losing races at tracks like North Wilkesboro and Darlington to take them elsewhere to greater populations. That's just a part of growth and it effects both chasing and racing.

Today, NASCAR drivers are from all over the nation. Chasers are from all around the world.We have people who come here to chase from Australia, Japan, Europe, etc.

I actually in many ways miss the old NASCAR and would love to see it return to it's roots. But that isn't going to happen. Growth fueled by exposure has forever changed the landscape. So either you find a way to adapt to the changes or you move on. The same is true of chasing. The growth fueled by the books, the documentaries, the news coverage, etc has been tremendous. There's simply no way to change that. The only way chasing will ever be like it was in the 70's again with so few problems is to have a similar size group of people chasing with no interest being generated by the media. Again, that just isn't going to happen. The cat is out of the bag.

-George

 

[David Douglas]

AH!! So that's why we have that red NASCAR looking chase thing following us around :roll:

 

[Sheila_Ward]

Shane - right on!

I chase because I have a passion for severe weather. Nothing makes me happier than watching and experiencing storms.

Things change, some for the better, some worse. I will not let any of that affect how/why I chase. And I won't let a forum change how I chase either. This is a great place to exchange info with other chasers, but ST does not "define" chasing.

Everybody has a reason for being out there. I am not one to define what is right or wrong. In all aspects of life there are always a few who can make you look bad. People will focus and talk about bad behavior more than they will good behavior. To use George's analogy of NASCAR. I am a big NASCAR fan. In the past there have been fans that have gotten angry and thrown beer cans on the track while the cars are still out there. They are idiots and I would like to kick their a$$, but for these kind of people there is nothing I could do or say that would make them act any different.

I experience more reckless driving everyday when I commute to work. Does it make me mad, heck yes. But I can't change how those people drive either. Will I call a chaser out if they do something stupid that risks others lives? You bet I will. I will also confront Joe Blow interstate driver who risks others lives (people have to stop for gas sometime).

The new chasers that are seriously passionate about the weather will take the time to learn from more experienced chasers. You won't have to tell them to. The ones that don't really care about learning anything and their main goal is to get closer to a tornado than anyone are not going to be receptive to any type of "movement" anyway.

The biggest thrill of my life would be to be on a storm, have it all to myself watching a big stovepipe tornado form, then have Roger Jensen pull up and watch the storm with me. But that's not going to happen.

 

[Jayson Prentice]

Beings a lot of this is focusing on some of the newer chasers, I figured I would try and get a word in from a new chaser. :wink: Sorry ahead of time if it is not well thought out, as I'm going with passion here...

As a lot of new chaser's say, they have always been interested in weather and now are able to drive or get to go along with other people. No different with me, always being fascinated by it and what it can do in just minutes. I even have a book from 2nd grade when I recorded the weather for a week... I believe that the problem that most of the new chasers have is that they don't want to see the storm structure, turkey towers like Jeff mentioned and especially things like sunsets, etc. They want to see that mile wide tornado with tons upon tons of CG flashes all around them. They want to feel the wind from the tornado themselves. Sure, I wouldn't mind being close to a tornado, but by no means am I going to get dangerously close...

I've talked to a few new chasers or people who want to chase in the upcoming years. And they just don't get it, in my point of view. They are interested in going when the storms fire and driving 80 mph to get there... They do not want to be pacient, drive out into the country to see wide open fields and wait for those first towers to go up. Sure, I've only been on a couple of small chases, but some of the best times were driving back home and the wait for storms to finally initiate.

The next thing is once you actually get to the storm, you need to plan ahead.. Get in position for the storm, stay out of the core, etc.. Several new chasers and even semi-experienced chasers will not to do this. They will go right after it and have to bail out in the end. They will purposely go for the hail and into the rain core. This is becuase they don't have the knowledge behind themselves to know better, who knows what could come out of the sky when you get past the core... But, most newbies are going by themselves into unfamilar territory without the proper education, techniques and especially equipment. I for one am always wanting a partner, I believe it is always best that way. You need to have more than one person, be able to look around to be sure you aren't about to get hammered by a different storm. Plus, if they are more educated/experienced you can always learn a lot more. The problem of course wether it bothers you or not is that several people go out by themselves without knowing exactly what they are doing. And that is what is going to give chasers bad names. I want to be able to go out and say I like to chase storms and not have people just say "wow, how close have you been to a tornado" or "how many tornadoes have you seen?" To me it is much more then just that simple weather phenomena. SO many more things to weather than just that tornado... That is what everybody is loosing site of. I know many other have said things similar to this, but they are all experienced chasers. I just felt that you guys should know that there is some hope in the upcoming chasers. Edit: I have noticed even over the past 3 years that I have went to spotter classes how the formats' have changed. Most people that are there are in fact "older" so to say. You do not see many people 15-30 that are in attednance. Why is that? I know I have felt strange going to these when everybody else is at least 10 years older then me... Younger chasers aren't going to classes, not talking to wiser people. Sure, I may be bothersome sometimes trying to ask questions. But, I jsut want to learn more! And I'm sure it may seem that I have butted in, (maybe in this occasion as well) about things and some of you wonder, who the heck is this??!... But, I want to be known out there, and eventually be recognized like David Drummond, Tim Vasquez, Mike Hollingshead, Tim Samaras and this list could go on and on of people that I look up to. I don't want younger inexperienced people ruining the vision that I have out here for storm chasing. I want to make it my own! And that is what my plan is...

I hope to someday, hopefully this summer yet to meet up with some of you guys... Knowing that I will learn a lot and come away with a positive experience wether I see storms or not... I'm not going to let new chasers such as myself, or even experienced chasers ruin what is supposed to be storm chasing and what I have looked forward to for several years now. I'm going to go out on the road, enjoy the scene of the countryside as well as the weather... Enjoy all of the things that I want to enjoy and not what all other chasers enjoy...

All the newbie has to say on the subject... 8) Sorry for any interuption...

 

[Mike Peregrine]

The online world of chasing vs. the real world of chasing are two totally different things. I think a lot of us probably assume we know each other from our posts in here, but the truth is that we really don't have much much of a clue about what we are each like in day-to-day life. In the past there have been several chasers who I have formed ideas of what they are like by reading posts everyday, but then when I actually meet them I'm surprised that they weren't anything like the preconceived notion I had of them. Causes me to try not to put people in a box according to what I've read on an Internet site. The fact is still very true of chasing that everyone who does it just loves to be out there. One thing that you will see over and over when looking down a line of cars parked to watch a supercell is the same look of excitement on each of the faces behind the cameras and binoculars, etc. that has always been there. I don't think that aspect of chasing has changed much at all.

 

[Blake Naftel]

Touching on how ST has changed, rather than chasing; I personally miss the old days of sitting down and reading the hard-copy version of both Stormtrack and TESSA newsletters; something, which has disappeared since the "wondrous" innovation of the internet. The near real-time chase reports, photos, and nowcasts act as both a blessing and burden; where as the old hard-copy version was more personal, plus one typically would not suffer significant eye-fatigue from staring at a computer screen for hours on end.

For the most part, I do enjoy filtering through online accounts, photos, and so on, but the rapid-fire pace of multimedia nowadays coupled with the amount of chasers posting have virtually overrun my tolerance level of such subject matter. I too enjoy writing up summaries when time permits and sharing my experiences/photographs (good, bad, or ugly) with the masses, yet find myself speeding through posts (on various lists) and then hitting the delete key. It's sometimes to the point where I cannot read all report posts from the three lists I'm subscribed to, thus am forced to be highly selective.

The current online version will never compare to sitting down with a copy of ST or The Weather Bulletin (TESSA); taking time to read, in detail, in-depth accounts, view the black & white (occasional color) photocopies, and be amused with the latest Hoadley artwork. I first subscribed to ST in January 1995; along w/ TESSA, and every once in awhile, pull out an old hard-copy issue, sit back, and reflect on the events of yesteryear.

..Blake..

 

[Patrick Kerrin]

The new chasers that are seriously passionate about the weather will take the time to learn from more experienced chasers. You won't have to tell them to. The ones that don't really care about learning anything and their main goal is to get closer to a tornado than anyone are not going to be receptive to any type of "movement" anyway.

Sheila - very well said and I do agree!

All the same I think it is a good thing to be reminding ourselves frequently about how what safe, courteous, and respondsible chasing is. That can only be good for any and all of us - as the truth is even those of us who are on a soapbox about this can make mistakes. We are all human. But even though one isn't perfect one can still always try to be a more safe, courteous and responsible chaser. Maybe that is all the "movement" we need - to always reflect on how safe, courteous and responsible each of us are being (and please maybe not get all freaked out when we remind each other of being safe, courteous and responsible).

If we remind ourselves frequently what is safe, courteous and responsible, it will help counter all the subtle and non-subtle pressures to chase more agressively (and those pressure are there and increasing in the current chase culture).

My motivation for my concerns are that I don't want to see chasing ruined for all of us - new or old chaser alike (wheter that is someone dying, killing someone else, or more likely just making us look very bad as a group) - hopefully all can relate to that sentiment.

I am sorry if my ernest tone leads some to believe that I am trying to be doctrinaire - I am not that way (interesting thoughts Mike on how we all can come across differently in a forum). I am actually a very live and let live guy - but I also really care about the overall state of chasing and its culture. Maybe I should have started this thread off with a post more like this one, but at least the other one got people's attention - and hopefully thinking about the issue! Again - thinking is good.

 

[Joe Zemek]

Interesting stuff.

Regardless of who thinks what (and I sense basic agreement after a page or two of hashing), Patrick started this thread, and people have responded as they have, because everyone cares about chasing. The issues Patrick raised initially are probably more related to the Internet forum format and how it alters the dynamics of information and communication, as well as the increased number of people chasing over the years.

The more people you have, the more approaches, opinions, & values you collect, and in this case, collect into a vaguely defined community. The expansion of chasing as a hoobby that does not require meteorology or ethics training has enlarged the chase community from the truly passioniate, inspired, informed--i.e, a smaller community of purer motivation and skill--into more of a mass-culture activity. Of course there will be some dilution of the pure chase motives and associated skills, and more opportunities for miscreance. The Internet format assures that more people know about each infraction and sooner.

The best way to overcome this is to inform the uninformed. Encourage prospective chasers to learn, tutor 'em, get 'em nowcasting... be an example. Obviously you can't do this for everyone but it's something. Those people can do it for others. As George said, chasing will never revert to what it once was, for those for whom that has meaning.

Personally, I think the chase community would benefit greatly from meeting Al Moller in a small town library and paying attention.