Extreme Photoshopping

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At the risk of being kicked out of Stormtrack and run out of the chaser community, I want to raise a topic that I've been thinking about for awhile - extreme photoshopping of storm photos. These photos are incredibly striking, obviously marketable, and definitely get the WOW factor. But, I would be flunked out of photography school if I turned in one of these shots for an assignment but they would be praised in my former art school. So, my question is, what do others think of extreme photoshopping of storm photos? Is what mother nature produces good enough or do we need to enhance to the point of making it look like something we'd never see in real life? Or, are the extreme photoshop photos to be considered art instead of representations of reality? The recent trend seems to be taking it further and further. I'm interested in hearing what others think.
 
There is a discussion similar to this in the "High Dynamic Range Imaging" thread in Equipment ---> http://www.stormtrack.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=11072. In my opinion, lots of the work that chasers do comes in low light situations and so some amount of processing is necessary to extract fine details from the cloud structures. I can look at some of the old images that I took on my 4 MP camera which I did not do any processing on and compare them to the Photoshop enhanced ones taken with my D50, and the amount of detail that is shown in the newer images is extraordinary. The work done by Mike H, Mike U, Aaron, and many others on this forum requires a subtle blend of a photographer's eye and digital darkroom skill, so in my mind that counts as art just the same.
 
At the risk of being kicked out of Stormtrack and run out of the chaser community, I want to raise a topic that I've been thinking about for awhile - extreme photoshopping of storm photos. These photos are incredibly striking, obviously marketable, and definitely get the WOW factor. But, I would be flunked out of photography school if I turned in one of these shots for an assignment but they would be praised in my former art school. So, my question is, what do others think of extreme photoshopping of storm photos? Is what mother nature produces good enough or do we need to enhance to the point of making it look like something we'd never see in real life? Or, are the extreme photoshop photos to be considered art instead of representations of reality? The recent trend seems to be taking it further and further. I'm interested in hearing what others think.
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FWIW IMHO, material alteration of any image purported to be journalistic, historical, or representational is bad -- material alteration being the distortion of aspects that are central to what the image is conveying.

But that said, every image is art and every photograph whether wet-process or digital is "photoshopped" to some extent. I usually have an 81B (orange warming) filter on for all-around lens protection. The media themselves have less contrast range and different light response from what "nature" produces or the human eye perceives. M/F Nature produced the artist or photographer, too, as an essential part of the whole process of conveying "real life".

I'm more concerned with subtle, undetectable material alterations than "extreme" ones which are obvious. Good question, Ericka! Any particular examples to get worked up about?
 
Intersting comment, Ericka. I think that a lot of people view Photoshop as "cheating". But, in fact, I would counter that it is very much akin to what some of the masters did in the darkroom. For example, Ansel Adams, perhaps the 20th century's most amazing photographer, burned & dodged a lot of his photos and even took multiple exposures that he then "layered" to make his final shots.

The pictures themselves accent storm features which were already there in the photo. I'm not very good at PS (and have really appreciated the links in the HDRI link above to learn more. But, these photos aren't doctored in the "traditional" sense of the word. In other words, most of the pix I see simply bring out the best a photo has to offer.

Since you have a better background in this than I, why would your professors have flunked you for similar dodge/burns (and I mean that sincerely :)). How does what Ansel Adams did differ from the PS enhanced photos people are produing?
 
I agree that some processing is fine, and even required in some cases. Shooting RAW requires you to post-process, and shooting jpg may as well given that many of the "as shot" pictures don't necessarily look like reality initially. Folks have been able to "post-process" in the lab for a long time, and post-processing digital pics doesn't seem to be much different.

That said, some folks overprocess pics to the point that the pictures look quite fake. Now, I admit -- I'm guilty of this too from time to time. I've overprocessed some of my 4-24-06 pictures, and I need to go back and reprocess them. When messing with curves, sharpness, etc, there's a point after which the photo begins to look quite fake. Sometimes you can't really pin-point what's wrong with the picture -- it just looks "off".

In the end, here's my 2 cents -- post-processing is not inherently bad. Sometimes it's required, and it's not a whole lot different than what some folks did in film labs (though more flexibility with digital pics now). However, some pictures definately look overprocessed (again, I'm not calling the kettle black -- some of my own pics, admittently, look too processed).. In the end, I can comment on others' pictures, but I can't really say anything since people can make their pictures look like anything they want. If someone wants to push contrast to the max, then who am I to say anything about it? I may not like it, but that doesn't mean the person shouldn't be allowed to do it.
 
So, my question is, what do others think of extreme photoshopping of storm photos?[/b]

It is just my own personal choice but I absolutely won't do it. There are times when it is tempting but I can't bring myself to do it. Here's an example. Wouldn't it be nice if I could have taken the street pole out. But then if I did that, things go through my mind..."what if the streetpole was interacting with the lightning somehow?" In photojournalism, I can't change a darn thing but that's the way I want it.

Beautiful tree and lightning with annoying streetpole

Where was my machete when I needed it (distracting bush to the left)

I might be weird about this but my stuff only has meaning to me if it is photojournalistic and depicts the moment exactly as it happened. Believe me, there is a downside to my strict guidelines. I have to wait five years to get a shot like:

American flag with lightning

Plus, there are some stellar shots I have that will never be usable because although there is a fantastic lightning bolt, something distracting (that I won't take out) is in the picture. So it goes in the reject pile. I have more than a handful of those...breaks my heart LOL but it's all about photojournalism to me and if something doesn't make the cut, then it doesn't go out into the world.

Anyhow, good question. Just stating my own personal way of doing it (or not doing it I guess). The storm is natural so I have to be natural too. Like I said though, that is just Susan's way.

I get a lot of questions about color variance too with the desert storms. The difference in the desert is that sometimes there is a sandstorm too. In that case the photos will be pink or wine. During heavy rain the pictures will be blue. That's why the colors change so much. Cabernet color=mucho sand (and I'm wearing silly looking goggles while photographing). Clear rainwashed air = blue range. City lights can give me green tones.
 
I don't have a problem with photoshopping (and it is neccesary for DSLR photos)... but I have noticed a tendancy to really pull out the contrast in many images making them appear better than real life. While that in itself is fine (photography is art), these photos then circulate the net and then people think that's what the sky really looks like. I've had a few non-met friends make comments that certain pictures/storms aren't as impressive as x and y... as I tend to go with a more realistic setting (just my preference). So if anything... perhaps it is doing the public a disservice and misleading them (unless you put some sort of notice at the bottom). The only real harm I can think of is sending severely photoshopped photos to say the NWS for skywarn spotting.

BTW: I don't have any issues with HDR... my goal is to get the output from my camera to mimic what I saw with my own eyes. Often, scenes have too much dynamic range for the camera, so HDR or other adjustments are neccesary.


Aaron
 
It depends on your purpose for the image. If you are submitting the image for news service distribution that they will use in newspapers, then you would be confined by more ethical boundaries than if your purpose is to sell prints as art. This is a personal decision. Newspapers confine their photographers to only a VERY LIMITED degree of PS adjustments. Ask Ryan McGiniss about this. He explained it to me in Lincoln. Pretty interesting stuff.

If your purpose is to sell art to hang on a wall, then make it however you want. If your purpose is to convey storm information for research, news or documentation, then some harder limits would definitely be in order. I can also see the value in what Aaron mentions as this stuff gets passed around the net - with the potential to convey a distorted concept. As for shooting JPG vs. RAW - this is basically just a decision as to whether you want a camera company to decide how your image should be processed, or whether you as the photographer should reserve that right. RAW is the only way to fly. In-camera JPG processing almost never does an image justice ... in other words, I don't want Canon to decide what my contrast and sharpening settings should be before I ever even take a photo.

Also - I agree with Aaron that HDR does not constitute 'extreme PS' work. It's simply a method of opening up more stops in the scene, and if used properly it will convey correct information about the scene. If used improperly, it will distort the image. You can tell the difference between HDR images that have been overprocessed and those that look natural. To me, the definition of extreme PS comes more in what Susan mentioned, in the adding or subtracting of data that does not already - and should not - exist in the photo. (Although I have to say in her example of beautiful tree with annoying street pole - I would have no problem cropping that light out. It's in an easily croppable section of the photo that will not change the documentation of the photo at all, IMO ... and crops are fair game, used in both the darkroom or on the computer.)
 
Interesting thread and thoughts. I think graphic editors are very helpful .I see the important reason for photographing (I now use digital cameras since 2000 and but have been using film before that) to capture what "my mind sees." I use photoshop mostly to crop, sometimes sharpen and use the contrast. But for the most part it is to photoshop should not be used to make your photoshop show what nature did not intend.

Dr. Eric Flescher ([email protected]), Olathe, KS:913-780-5902: (mobile) 913-486-1274: Storm Satori- http://members.aol.com/kcstormguy/stormsat...tormsatori.htm: E.O.A.S. (Earth, Oceans, Atmosphere and Space Blog) -http://www.xanga.com/dreric1kansas
 
I agree on some thought, depends for what will you need photos. Sometimes its good to leave the photo as an original, but once a friend of mine said something like this: "If you're using DSLR, its almost a must to edit photos and a raw photo from a camera is just a 15% of the final photo", I can agree on that and I am editing them too... again depends how I want the pic to turn out at the end.

But I am wondering about some pics...for example this one from Ryan McGinnis: http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/474/mg9279web3ni.jpg, is it possible to see that one and an original pic side by side, Ryan? That edited pics looks outstanding, cannot believe it could be like that in reality. Any helpful photoshop tricks would be cool as well. Love Ryan's photos, almost like an art sometimes!
 
"If you're using DSLR, its almost a must to edit photos and a raw photo from a camera is just a 15% of the final photo"[/b]

That's a good way to put it ... to refuse to do ANY processing would be like taking print photos but then refusing to develop any of the negatives. There HAS to be some processing to be able to use the image the way you ultimately want to use it. Getting involved in discussions about how much is too much is pretty subjective territory (which is why it leads to so many arguments ... it's all about personal preference when it comes down to it) - - - the only reason there are so many discussions about it stems from the film generation having a difficult time making the transition into the digital universe. Film purists love to promote the idea that there is more skill involved in making a quality still image from film than there is from digital. Meanwhile they have a set of 50 Cokin filters that they use to manipulate the scene in a countless number of ways, somehow thinking this is different than applying the same effect in PS. The only time I see a real issue is when it comes to news and documentation ... and then the same rules apply to both digital and film. If a person takes a look at Time or National Geographic these days and thinks that all of those photogs are shooting film and none of them are applying processing methods to their photos, then they aren't aware of the current state of the art.
 
It's a fine line how much a photo can be post-processed before looking 'unreal', and whether a photo should ever be pushed anywhere near that point. There can be many goals when doing post processing -- one can be attempting to create an emotive piece of artwork, for example, or they may be aiming for photojournalism.

Photojournalism has a few cardinal sins. The clone tool is one of them -- no photo that has been touched by the clone tool can be considered 'photojournalistic'. That doesn't mean that it can't be run in a newspaper or a magazine, only that it will be used as a piece of art (technically known as a 'photo illustration'), not as a representation of reality. Photojournalists are allowed to post-process their images, and almost all do. In the past this meant hours in the darkroom dodging and burning and masking and the like; these days it means a few minutes with photoshop. The AP usually asks for photos as unmolested as possible; they have a very lighthanded photo toning method, assuming that each publication will need to do different things to the photo to get that photo to reproduce in the many different printing presses and mediums.

One of the big secrets of contemporary photography, I am discovering, is that almost everything you see in every medium has been heavily post-processed at some point or another. Seriously. That photo of the football player you see in the newspaper? Some guy like me went in with a computer and made sure that that football player's skin tones adhered to certain 'known' CMYK color number values. Someone went in and made sure the uniform was the correct color, that the grass renders as green, that the sky renders as blue. Someone totally butchered that photo so that, when printed using cheap ink on cheap paper, it looks something like the original. All the magazines use the same process. All professional photos are processed at one point or another. The other day I went down to Forberg's gallery and asked the lady behind the desk what he shoots with. He shoots slides... and then drum scans them. There's only one reason to drum scan something... to digitally post process them. And I can see what he's doing in his post processing, too, and it's well beyond what would be easily achieveable in a darkroom. If you aren't digitally post processing your digitally shot photos at all, then you're skipping at least 50% of the photographic process.

That said, that still doesn't address the 'how much is too much' question, and it's a really good question. The answer is that there is no answer. If what you're doing is suiting your application, then it's not too much. When I tone, my application is usually to attempt to make the photograph appear as it did to my eye at the time that I was there. (Usually -- sometimes I'm just going for pure art, and at those times the photos look much more dramatic than what I actually saw, though it may reflect the emotions I was feeling when I took it!) It's good to not lie to the people you are trying to show your image to. If you're toning artistically, don't be shy -- tell them!

Storm photography is extremely difficult in that the human eye can usually process detail in ALL of the scene, whereas your camera is going to have a very stunted dynamic latitude. You want the cloud detail, you've gotta blow out the ground. You want the sky detail, your gonna lose your cloud and your ground. You want the ground detail, your sky will be white. Traditionally, this kind of thing was tackled by using gradiated filters and the like. In contemporary times, this can be tackled by other methods as well; either by digital post processing or through something like HDR or multi-exposure composting. I tend to use digital post processing and very rarely multi-shot composting to simulate gradiated filters, though I've been experimenting a bit with HDR. (The reason that I rarely use multi-shot is that at that point the photo usually becomes disqaulified for being photojournalistic, as the photograph is not a temporally whole event.)

Someone asked about this photo:



This photograph was actually, surprisingly, not very post-processed. But it was post-processed. It was shot as a Canon RAW in the Adobe RGB colorspace, then converted to 16 bit TIFFs*, given some LAB mode tweaks (levels, slight s-curve to the clouds and ground, slight colorspace compression in the a & b channels (10 points, either side, as an adjustment layer, then backed off a bit on the opacity), reconverted to RGB, moved to the sRGB colorspace, downsampled to 8 bit, sharpened, and saved.

Why's the asterisk there above? Because when I did the RAW conversion, I used the Adobe RAW conversion tool to convert it several different times to simulate several different exposures. All of these 'exposures' are of course just different slices of the RAW pie, most of which gets thrown away in the final product. For example, here is the RAW images as shot in the camera:



Nice overall, but the ground is fairly dark and the sky at right is blown out. What to do? Well, use this as a base, and then use several other RAW samples and compost them as neccesary.

For the clouds, use:



For the blown out sky:



For the ground:



This simulates what the eye and brain sees; I sure as heck wasn't getting a blowout in my eyeball when I looked at this scene, and the ground wasn't black, and the sky wasn't washed out. By tapping into all the data the RAW file had, I was able to better render what I actually saw. The end product, again, was:



In actuality, I think the scene as I saw it looked a lot scarier than this, but then I was trying not to get hit by lightning and snap off this shot on a tall metal tripod before the gust front and the hail arrived, so I'm probably just blending in my own emotional impressions. :) Memory is weird like that. Ultimately, I dig the rustic, rural, painterly feel the photo ends up having, so I wouldn't dream of pushing it any closer to what I actually saw.

It's basically a taste thing. Taste and honesty. If your taste runs afoul of what you know a scene looked like to you, then it's a good idea to mention it if you think that people are going to assume that what they're looking at is what you saw. However, if what they're looking at is what you saw, sometimes you'll have to fight them -- as storm chasers, the stuff that we see is so far removed from the realities that most people experience it's easy to forget that things that look normal to us in a print look like The End Of The World -- i.e., unbelieveable -- to most others.
 
At the risk of being kicked out of Stormtrack and run out of the chaser community, I want to raise a topic that I've been thinking about for awhile - extreme photoshopping of storm photos. These photos are incredibly striking, obviously marketable, and definitely get the WOW factor. But, I would be flunked out of photography school if I turned in one of these shots for an assignment but they would be praised in my former art school. So, my question is, what do others think of extreme photoshopping of storm photos? Is what mother nature produces good enough or do we need to enhance to the point of making it look like something we'd never see in real life? Or, are the extreme photoshop photos to be considered art instead of representations of reality? The recent trend seems to be taking it further and further. I'm interested in hearing what others think.
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BTW -- another thing I wanted to mention. When you get out into the actual world of people who desire and use photography products, I can assure you that absoloutely nobody cares what any of those schools think. This is not to say that they aren't very useful, only that they have about as much bearing on reality as a modern-day Samurai school would have on 21st century warfare. When I was in college, I was told that it was photojournalistically unethical to use any digital tool on a photo that didn't have a direct, easy link to a corresponding tool in the darkroom. So I was limited to dodging and burning and simple saturation and constrast and brightness tools. Then I discovered the actual world of photojournalistic pre-production, and realized that almost everything I was ever taught was entirely unapplicable to the reality of the marketplace. In photojournalism, a photo must be honest, and sometimes to keep a photo honest, the photo must be processed in ways that are not directly correlated to anything you can do in a darkroom. Especially when you are transferring a photo to a medium like offset or Flexo printing. In my opinion, it is not the tools that matter, only the intent and how well the final product matches that intent. And if you're aiming for art, then you don't even have the mandate that the photo be honest, anymore. (Though, personally, I dislike deception in photographic art, unless the deception has some terribly clever point.)
 
the only reason there are so many discussions about it stems from the film generation having a difficult time making the transition into the digital universe. Film purists love to promote the idea that there is more skill involved in making a quality still image from film than there is from digital. Meanwhile they have a set of 50 Cokin filters that they use to manipulate the scene in a countless number of ways, somehow thinking this is different than applying the same effect in PS. The only time I see a real issue is when it comes to news and documentation ... and then the same rules apply to both digital and film. If a person takes a look at Time or National Geographic these days and thinks that all of those photogs are shooting film and none of them are applying processing methods to their photos, then they aren't aware of the current state of the art.
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¿Qué?

Strongly disagree over here. There is at least one person (me) who is both a film purist but also has digital equipment (for live stuff, blogs, quick stuff, and ancient ruins/rock art). So I'll use both, but film still is in the driver's seat for most of my stuff. Reasons:

Pretty simple, I do night work. My specialty is low-light photography such as lightning, fires, night scenes, dances around the fire, that kind of stuff. Film still handles that better for right now. Digital is just at the heels for night stuff, and very soon might be just as apt, but film still handles night work just a tad better. The flexibility in the bulb setting, no worries of noise, those are some of the reasons. Digital is almost there though, and when that happens, if I find a digital camera that can handle night work just as elegantly with every nuance of film, I'll consider it.

A lot of photo editors are still pretty stubborn about accepting digital submissions, this is starting to change but with a transparency submission, they can see it, feel it, break out the 14x loupe and know the thing is real. Although they will look at .jpgs for a preliminary review, when they really want to see your stuff, they want that slide in front of them. So far, most of the photo editors I have worked with, particularly the ones with strict guidelines, have gone that route (except for TV, they seem to like the hi-rez scans, but then, the journalistic aspect comes into play so again, it has to be real.)

I refuse filters or color alterations. Actually, there is no need to augment colors in a storm or especially a desert landscape, out here you'd end up with a supersaturated cartoonish image that would obviously look like make-believe. "There are two windows of good photo light - 20 minutes at dawn and 20 minutes at sunset" - Richard Maack, Photo Editor, Arizona Highways. When composing with landscape elements especially, which is unavoidable around here, filters are not necessary because spectacular light is available during those times. Sand in the air makes colors even more bizarre. But if you try to shoot good landscapes at high noon on a clear boring day, well, best of luck. I'll chase the light for the good colors, get up at 4:30am, use beautylight in the evenings. That's part of the craft too, and I know in my heart the scene was real and happened that way and that is important to me...and again that is personal preference. Nothing against those who artistically change things, after all, Ansel Adams did.

Photography is both technical aptitude + a good eye for composition. Digital photography doesn't diminish that art, you still need both. The only difference is the tool in your hand, which makes the first part different, but not the second. What goes in is what comes out. A camera just doesn't spit out a good image on it's own. In both cases, the photographer has to chase the shot and capture it. Film photographers don't think there's more skill in film work; it is just a different tool for the same craft. It's like arguing which is better in target shooting, a gun or bow. They're just different tools, and both require the shooter's skill behind it.
 
Oh I agree with much of what you say here Susan ... my point is just that in photography schools when I've talked to friends who are students, the instructors generally still seem to retain pro-film attitudes for the most part, and they're still trying to ingrain this thinking into their students, rather than simply seeing different tools for different jobs, as you mention.

A friend of mine attending local photography courses in college told me that she would never go digital because of things her instructor told her class ... he implied that digital does not allow the same versatility that film allows, using the old arguments that slide and film is inherently better because of higher resolutions, and therefore that professionals will only choose slides and print films. By claiming that if you want to be considered a pro you have to abandon digital, he's been denying them a lot of latitude in developing their own individual styles.

I actually believe that now the majority of photojournalism is shifting into the route of high-end digital, particularly that which deals with foreign journalism. I think it's actually starting to become the preferred medium in many cases, because it allows journalists to send their work immediately around the world to publishers, even from the most remote corners of the world. Here's an example from National Geographic.

I have a lot of respect for your desire for clean images with little or no manipulation, and see this as having merit from a photojournalism and creative standpoint - - it makes you who you are and flavors your work. At the same time I have equal respect for those who find other creative means for conveying the emotive qualities of a storm through whatever means at their disposal - whether through use of filters, PS work, or whatever. It makes each person special for developing their own unique style and gives us the opportunity to see a storm through different eyes.

Ryan - thanks for those great posts - I love that photo too.
 
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