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El Reno Oklahoma tornado downgraded to EF3

Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
23
Location
Oklahoma City
I just saw this on our local news. Because it hit few structures, there was little to work with to classify it as a EF5. Radar intensity aside, this is their final determination.
Guess I can live with that, but as a resident that saw the overall storm system, it will live in our memory much like the 1999 tornado & May 19 & 20, 2013 that ravaged our area.
Bring up the storm of May 31, 2013 and I'd say it did a lot of widespread damage over much of the same area to a level I have never seen.
Guess I'm saying that was one stout supercell & the weather dynamics that day produced many other very strong supercells creating damage over a large area.
 
*****DISCLAIMER: IN NO WAY DOES THE FOLLOWING REPRESENT THE VIEWS OF MY EMPLOYER****

It doesn't make any sense to me either. Supposedly the concern is over 'objectivity' and 'consistency' but that IMO would argue in favor of doppler measurements, not against them. Damage assessments are inherently subjective. We should be welcoming hardfast scientific measurements. Not to mention how silly it plays out in the press--with headlines going from "El Reno tornado upgraded...then downgraded...(then eventually upgraded again)" Very strange. The whole process is in review, so it will likley be modified, but in the meantime it would have been a lot simpler to let things be. I think people are still hung up on the concept of an F scale or EF-scale being soley indicators of damage. Fundamentally--they're not, they are designed to get an idea of wind speed. That was one of the main impetus of the change to EF, to get a better relationship between the actual wind speed and damage. If we can get an even better measurement, we should use it.

****MY PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE POSITION OF NOAA/NWS****
 
Jeff Snyder (member on this forum) has had a lot to say on today's events that is very well-stated. Since he was part of the crew (with the RaXPol) that obtained the wind speed ratings, he is probably among the most qualified to give a response. Normally I'd wait for him to post his response, but since forum participation (not necessarily of him, but of the community in general) has significantly dwindled over the years, I'm not sure he'll make it here to post. If he does, I will remove this and let him say his thing.

With that said, the following is his post on FB (for those of you not FB-friends with him):
Jeff Snyder via facebook said:
The El Reno tornado from 5/31/13 has officially been rated as an EF3; OUN officially submitted the Storm Data events for May 31st today. I know that OUN felt very comfortable with the original EF5 rating, so I am left to deduce that the "decree" came from up high. Downgrading the El Reno tornado back to EF3 despite high-quality, near-ground measurements of radial, quasi-horizontal winds easily exceeding 250 mph from a rapid-scan radar (i.e., RaXPol) and corroborating observations from a DoW seems like a step back to me. More bluntly, I find it ridiculous and scientifically disingenuous. The TTU "Recommendation for an Enhanced Fujita Scale (EF-Scale)" dated June 2004 notes on page 14 that "the technology of portable Doppler radar should also be a part of the EF scale process, either as a direct measurement, when available, or as a means of validating the wind speeds estimated by the experts."

I don’t know the final implementation of the EF-Scale by the NWS, but the verbiage above is pretty clear. If observed data from 5/31/13 are not to be used in the EF scale determination process, then I assume this means that all other tornadoes that have used radar observations (e.g., the tornado in Rozel on 5/18/13, the Bennington tornado a week after that, the 5/19/2013 Clearwater, KS, tornado, the Goshen County tornado from 6/5/09, and others) will be downgraded as well to remain consistent with the "rule" that only damage shall be used to rate tornadoes. This should also be extended to any rating that used non-traditional damage indicators since they, by definition, aren’t a part of the EF scale. If we say that El Reno was an EF3 tornado, that means it had winds of 135-165 mph when observations <50 m AGL are nearly double that. This is logically inconsistent. Essentially, it was an EF3 with 250-300+ mph winds. Adjusting the radar observations for a fair apples-to-apples comparison (e.g., 3 s wind gust) still yields winds significantly above 200 mph.

Many have noted that the EF-Scale is a damage scale. This is partly true – damage is assessed using Degree of Damage (DoD) levels for a series of Damage Indicators (DIs). However, as I'm sure we know, the reason why we rely upon damage assessment is largely because that’s the best way we have to estimate the strength of the winds within a tornado. For the vast majority of tornadoes that occur within the U.S. each year, damage at near-ground level is the only data available from which to infer tornado intensity. If wind speeds were irrelevant to the EF-scale, there wouldn’t be a need to attach wind speed ranges to EF-scale level. The entire development of the EF scale was based upon a survey from experts to determine the wind speeds that would produce the DoDs for each DI. So, wind speed and the EF-scale are very intricately tied together.

I don't think many have noticed but the winds assigned to each DoD for each DI varied, sometimes very significantly, from one expert to the next when the EF scale was developed. This is particularly true at the higher DoDs and stronger wind speeds. For example, from Appendix B (“Elicitation of Damage Versus Wind Speed”) of the EF scale document, the wind speeds estimated from the EF-scale expert panel associated with DoD 8 for the “Automobile Service Building” DI range from 120 to 220 mph – a range that spans from EF1 to EF5! Many DoDs for DIs span multiple EF categories. I point this out not to comment on the expertise of the panel (they are, indeed, experts in wind damage assessment!) but to point out the tremendous uncertainty that exists with the wind speeds associated with the EF scale. This uncertainty is compounded by uncertainties in the field when one has to assign a DoD to a DI. So, not only do the wind speeds assigned to a DoD span a sometimes-significant range, but it’s sometimes very difficult to determine which DoD should be assigned to a piece of damage. This is all to point out that one should not assume that damage assessments are far from an optimal way to arrive at an estimated tornado intensity if one intends to infer wind speeds.

To add to the above rant: Of course, scientific instruments such as mobile radars and anemometers are not without error either. There are well-known sources of error when one examines radial velocity data from a radar in an attempt to determine the winds within a tornado. A few are listed as follows: the radial velocity data represent the reflectivity-weighted mean velocity of scatterers within the radar resolution volume (which likely are not moving the same direction and speed as the air within a tornado); the radar resolution volume is often much larger and with a mean center above the 3 m standard height used in the EF scale; the volume of the atmosphere illuminated by the radar isn’t known with complete accuracy since there are uncertainties with beam propagation and partial beam blockage that differentially affects the power within the illuminated volume. It’s also very important to make sure we’re doing an apples-to-apples comparison when comparing radar observations (which are nearly instantaneous) to the 3-s wind gust specification of the EF scale. In RaXPol’s case, since we have PPIs every 2 s when we’re scanning at 180 deg. / s, we can average scans together to get an Eularian-frame average wind.

For the record, I do think it IS very important that standards be in place to guide offices on HOW and WHEN to use radar and other observational data. As I noted, a radial velocity estimate is essentially instantaneous, and it is an estimate. There are all sorts of complications involved when relating these measurements to the 3 s wind gust at 3-10 m AGL that the EF scale uses. In this particular case, however, it seems extraordinarily unlikely that, given the observed radar measurements, winds were <200 mph at 3-10 m AGL and when averaged over 3 s. The 3 s gust likely wasn't in the 290-300+ mph range we measured with RaXPol, but I can't imagine it wasn't comfortable over 200 mph. In addition, the radial velocity estimates are averaged over a resolution volume (and weighted towards the larger objects), which means that winds on a scale smaller than the radar volume may be appreciably higher (and winds that likely are moving faster than larger debris given inertia with the debris).

Indeed, there needs to be a clear method by which which such data are considered so that observations (be they remote sensing or in situ) are used consistently and reasonably (e.g., can't use data from a radar that's 85 km away with minimum beam height of 1.5 km AGL). Just this May, we saw one office determine an EF scale rating by averaging the damage-based rating and the radar-based rating, whereas others set the EF rating based on radar data on account of a lack of DIs. I just am not sure why wind speeds are attached to the EF scale if objective wind speed measurements (after considering the myriad of uncertainties and complications involved in radial velocity estimates) are not to be used. This seems particularly true to me when considering the potential error with damage estimates in the first place (in terms of winds "assigned" to each DoD and DI and in terms of accurately assigning a DoD to the damage).

I have a great amount of respect for Jeff and I agree 100% with his words. Unfortunately in this age of Facebook, Twitter, G+ and all that jazz, the great discussion that is occurring is doing so along closed avenues that most people will never see (i.e., on the FB walls of various people). It is my hope that a trend will soon develop in which people migrate back to forums like this to make it easier for everyone to join in on a communal discussion. I'm probably being too optimistic, though.

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My own opinion of this: I'm disappointed in the change. I think radar estimated winds should be allowed to modify tornado ratings. My reasoning: what's the point of the (Enhanced)-Fujita scale? Wasn't the original purpose of it to get an estimate of the wind speeds in tornadoes? Since its its inception up to the last few years, no reliable observations of wind speeds near the ground existed in tornadoes, so the only way to estimate the winds was based on damage. I think that led people to thinking the (E)F-scale was only ever meant to rate damage. If that were the case, I see no reason to ever attach wind speeds to the final damage rating. Since wind speed estimates are indeed attached to ratings, I think it's because of the attempt to estimate wind speeds in tornadoes. If we have tools now that are capable of providing more reliable estimates, why should we not use them? If your argument is something to the likes of the consistency of Storm Data or the F-scale in general, you don't even know how many tornadoes occurred but were never reported in the era since the (E)F-scale was first used and how many tornadoes pre-1960s-ish were rated months or years after the fact using damage photos available. Tornado damage was not particularly well documented to have done a thorough evaluation of damage in that time. Even today, NWS offices still use different policies to survey and document tornadoes. So there really isn't any consistency.
 
I have seen virtually unanimous support in the scientific community for mobile radar-based ratings (when they are available). It seems then, that it's only a matter of time until this begins influencing official NWS policy. In theory, that would result in the ultimate reinstitution of all radar-based ratings that were downgraded. In this case, the EF3 rating may very well be a temporary product of bureaucracy that we will have to accept until scientific consensus begins infiltrating NWS policy at some point in the future.
 
I've already stated my views here and elsewhere to the point of frustration, but I think the most obvious argument is the one Jeff just touched on. If we're reverting the rating under the pretense of keeping "continuity," shouldn't we first have some sort of continuity to maintain? Being consistently inconsistent with tornado ratings isn't doing anyone any good, and by rejecting mobile radar data we're rejecting one of the best available tools for reducing those inconsistencies and becoming more scientifically accurate -- which, after all, is supposed to be the whole point. It introduces new biases in the climatology, sure, but it's a bias in favor of increased accuracy. Seems unscientific and disingenuous to reject that in this case.
 
From what I have been told, the following is true:

-The EF-scale documentation proposing its use says that remotely-sensed (i.e., mobile Doppler radar) measurements should be used to augment or correct ratings based on damage.

-The official policy of NOAA/NWS is to use the same document alluded to above.

-The official policy of NOAA/NWS is not to use mobile Doppler radar to modify tornado ratings.

Hopefully the factual/logical contradiction is adequately spelled out here :).
 
From what I have been told, the following is true:

-The EF-scale documentation proposing its use says that remotely-sensed (i.e., mobile Doppler radar) measurements should be used to augment or correct ratings based on damage.

-The official policy of NOAA/NWS is to use the same document alluded to above.

-The official policy of NOAA/NWS is not to use mobile Doppler radar to modify tornado ratings.

Hopefully the factual/logical contradiction is adequately spelled out here :).

Yeah, it's puzzling to say the least. The EF-scale proposal, as Jeff S. mentioned, spells out clearly and unambiguously that mobile radar and/or other technologies ought to be used when appropriate. I don't know why there's such resistance.
 
Or maybe we should just do away with ratings altogether and just go with descriptors: tornado; bad tornado; really bad tornado; really really bad tornado. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks everyone for your opinion. Forecasters saw something like this coming, & Mother Nature delivered in a big way. Just glad this monster stayed in open areas & out of the Metro. Not to belittle the farms & lives destroyed by this event. Just saying it could have been much worse with the traffic backups & such. As a Oklahoman, we have a saying that says " this is going to stick in our craw for a while".
 
Another point mentioned by Jeff S. that I'm wondering about.. what do they do with the tornadoes rated by other, "non-traditional" means? Not only the radar-based ratings like Rozel, Bennington, etc.. but also the tornadoes rated by non-traditional DIs. Would, for example, the parking stops and manhole covers in Joplin be a better indicator of EF5 intensity than a RaXPol measurement well in excess of the 200mph threshold? Is the damage at and near the Cactus 117 site in El Reno (5/24/11) a better indicator of EF5 intensity than the RaXPol observations? If so, how do we know? If not, are we reverting any tornadoes rated by non-traditional means?

Creating some sort of standard for incorporating any and all available information - whether that be mobile radar, unconventional DIs or whatever else - is great. Eschewing it altogether isn't. Preaching to the choir, I know, but it makes me feel a bit better at least. :D
 
what do they do with the tornadoes rated by other, "non-traditional" means? Not only the radar-based ratings like Rozel, Bennington, etc.. but also the tornadoes rated by non-traditional DIs. Would, for example, the parking stops and manhole covers in Joplin be a better indicator of EF5 intensity than a RaXPol measurement well in excess of the 200mph threshold?

Funny you should bring that up. Here's the link to the civil engineers' damage survey opinion of the Joplin tornado. There is another contradictory statement from that group, too (i.e., that they found no EF-5 damage in Joplin, yet the tornado will keep its EF-5 rating).

http://www.joplinglobe.com/tornadom...ineers-release-study-of-Joplin-tornado-damage
 
Interesting article, thanks for the link. To be clear, the ACSE didn't rate the tornado so there's no real contradiction (other than they didn't find the damage the NWS did). It does point out the subjectivity factor though.
 
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Unfortunately in this age of Facebook, Twitter, G+ and all that jazz, the great discussion that is occurring is doing so along closed avenues that most people will never see (i.e., on the FB walls of various people). It is my hope that a trend will soon develop in which people migrate back to forums like this to make it easier for everyone to join in on a communal discussion. I'm probably being too optimistic, though.

--------------------------------------------------------

My own opinion of this: I'm disappointed in the change. I think radar estimated winds should be allowed to modify tornado ratings. My reasoning: what's the point of the (Enhanced)-Fujita scale? Wasn't the original purpose of it to get an estimate of the wind speeds in tornadoes? Since its its inception up to the last few years, no reliable observations of wind speeds near the ground existed in tornadoes, so the only way to estimate the winds was based on damage. I think that led people to thinking the (E)F-scale was only ever meant to rate damage. If that were the case, I see no reason to ever attach wind speeds to the final damage rating. Since wind speed estimates are indeed attached to ratings, I think it's because of the attempt to estimate wind speeds in tornadoes. If we have tools now that are capable of providing more reliable estimates, why should we not use them? If your argument is something to the likes of the consistency of Storm Data or the F-scale in general, you don't even know how many tornadoes occurred but were never reported in the era since the (E)F-scale was first used and how many tornadoes pre-1960s-ish were rated months or years after the fact using damage photos available. Tornado damage was not particularly well documented to have done a thorough evaluation of damage in that time. Even today, NWS offices still use different policies to survey and document tornadoes. So there really isn't any consistency.

Jeff is correct in that, one problem with FB and ST being completely separate (will ST ever interface with FB? Time will tell) is that it typically requires that we post the same information to multiple venues, which is time consuming. I haven't been able to visit ST until now since I've been fiery on FB this evening, but I'll be happy to discuss this on Stormtrack.

EDIT: Nevermind. I see that you copied many of my responses, so I've deleted my own copy/paste comments carried over from FB since they were redundant. :)

I do think that our drive for ACCURACY should take precedence over the desire to maintain some sort of consistency within an extremely inconsistent database. Is it wise to ignore available objective data so that more subjective and no-less-uncertain damage assessments can be used to maintain "consistency"? I think it's important to realize that the wind speeds assigned to each degree of damage can spread across multiple EF scale categories (referring to the expert elicitation process I highlighted in my original post that Duda posted). In other words, as massively experienced and knowledgeable as the expert panel was/is, the range of estimates for some DoDs was massive and indicative of great uncertainty. We are ignore good observational data for what can be subjective, highly-uncertain proxy data (i.e. tornado damage). Again, in no way do I want want to imply that the EF Scale was not designed well or that the experts somehow came up short by providing such large ranges of estimated wind speeds for some DoDs and DIs! It goes to show that estimating wind speed from damage is *far* from easy and far from errorless.

There are many errors and biases within the tornado database, at least assuming that one uses tornado ratings to infer tornado intensity (i.e. wind speed). It is important that a clear set of guidelines be developed so that observational data (which could be radar data, anemometer data, data from tornado pods, etc.) can be used in the EF scale fairly, by which I mean that the observations and EF-scale-assigned wind speeds are compared on an apples-to-apples basis. As noted, radar-measured radial velocities are NOT the same thing as a 3 second wind gust at 10 m AGL. Some of the characteristics of the radar data suggest that the observations underestimate than the 3 s, 10 m criteria for the EF scale; other characteristics of radar data suggest that the observations may overestimate the 3 s / 10 m criteria. I know that the wheels are in motion to enhance the EF scale by creating standards, assessing how best to use radar data (i.e. when it should or should not be used, etc.), etc., which is why I don't think that this is the last we'll hear of the EF3/EF5 El Reno rating. In addition, there is an official service assessment that's being performed and that will include the 5/31/13 event, and the official recommendations and best practices that come from that may lead to changes in NWS policy.
 
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